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Author Topic:   Are Most Of Us Doomed? (Matt 7:13-14)
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6460 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 1 of 44 (288786)
02-20-2006 4:51 PM


Matt ch. 7:
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
NIV at Matt 7:13, 14; NIV - The Narrow and Wide Gates - Enter - Bible Gateway;
The Skeptics Annotated Bible offers this discussion of Matt 7:13, 14:
"Wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction."
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. He seems to be OK with that.
SAB: Matthew 7
I agree with the first statement that Jesus says most of us are going to hell. I'm not sure he's "OK" with it, considering all that he reportedly went through subsequently, however (i.e., the cruficixion and the events prior to it).
(Note to admins: if this topic is being discussed as part of another thread, feel free to move this post there.)
This message has been edited by DeclinetoState, 02-20-2006 01:50 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Hangdawg13, posted 02-21-2006 2:03 AM DeclinetoState has replied
 Message 4 by Hal Jordan, posted 02-21-2006 7:50 AM DeclinetoState has not replied
 Message 13 by mike the wiz, posted 02-23-2006 9:30 AM DeclinetoState has not replied
 Message 14 by jar, posted 02-23-2006 11:47 AM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 44 (288787)
02-20-2006 4:54 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 03-04-2006 08:07 AM

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 773 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 3 of 44 (288968)
02-21-2006 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DeclinetoState
02-20-2006 4:51 PM


Hi DeclinetoState,
Here's some other passages to consider that go along with this one.
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, "As I live, saith the Lord Almighty, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked! but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a large, white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. I saw the dead, both unimportant and important, standing in front of the throne, and books were open. Another book was opened-the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to their works. Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (This is the second death-the lake of fire.) Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Joh 9:39 Then Jesus said, "I have come into this world for judgment, so that those who are blind may see, and those who see may become blind." Some of the Pharisees who were near him overheard this and said to him, "We aren't blind, too, are we?" Jesus told them, "If you were blind, you would not have any sin. But now that you insist, 'We see,' your sin remains."
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have any sin. But now they have no excuse for their sin. The person who hates me also hates my Father. If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not have any sin. But now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.
Luk 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed are ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
Luk 16:19 Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, faring sumptuously every day: and a certain beggar named Lazarus was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table; yea, even the dogs come and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham's bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted and thou art in anguish.
Mat 22:2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding banquet for his son. He sent his servants to call those who had been invited to the wedding, but they refused to come. So he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those who have been invited, "Look, I've prepared my dinner. My oxen and fattened calves have been slaughtered. Everything is ready. Come to the wedding!"' But they paid no attention to this and went away, one to his farm, another to his business. The rest grabbed the king's servants, treated them brutally, and then killed them. Then the king became outraged. He sent his troops, and they destroyed those murderers and burned their city. "Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. So go into the roads leading out of town and invite as many people as you can find to the wedding.' Those servants went out into the streets and brought in all the people they found, evil and good alike, and the wedding hall was packed with guests. "When the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. He said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' But the man was speechless. Then the king told his servants, 'Tie his hands and feet, and throw him into the outer darkness! In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' For many are invited, but few are chosen."
Luk 12:45 But if that servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he expecteth not, and in an hour when he knoweth not, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the unfaithful. And that servant, who knew his lord's will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes; but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more.
Mat 7:2 For with the judgment you use, you will be judged. And with the measure you use, you will be measured.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles?
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials and to hold unrighteous people for punishment on the day of judgment, especially those who satisfy their flesh by indulging in its passions and who despise authority. Being bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to slander glorious beings. Yet even angels, although they are greater in strength and power, do not bring a slanderous accusation against them from the Lord. These people, like irrational animals, are mere creatures of instinct that are born to be caught and killed. They insult what they don't understand, and like animals they, too, will be destroyed.
So basically, few will be saved. God's noble vessels are rare. God can save whoever he chooses. He will save many poor people who suffered in this life. Knowledge of truth makes a person responsible. Judgment varies with how much truth you knew and how you treated others. Some just die like the animals do. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Hell and death and hades are all thrown into the lake of fire at the end, so death and hell die too. They die in the fires of God's holiness. His holiness consumes all that is impure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-20-2006 4:51 PM DeclinetoState has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-22-2006 1:10 AM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 7 by Chronos, posted 02-22-2006 1:58 AM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 19 by riVeRraT, posted 02-24-2006 6:10 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Hal Jordan
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 44 (289018)
02-21-2006 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DeclinetoState
02-20-2006 4:51 PM


Yes, we are....
According to just those verses (Matt 7:13-14), we are collectively doomed. Unless of course you are a True Christian, then you have nothing to worry about...except, of course, whether or not you are, in fact, a True Christian.
The message of "believe or perish" seems to me a lot like spiritual extortion. So, if the verses that you quoted are accurately interpreted, then yes, most of us are doomed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-20-2006 4:51 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by ReverendDG, posted 02-22-2006 1:37 AM Hal Jordan has not replied

  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6460 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 5 of 44 (289409)
02-22-2006 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Hangdawg13
02-21-2006 2:03 AM


What this all means
If few are saved, then it seems it can be assumed that some, if not many, people who were believed to be good will instead be condemned to hell. These may include political leaders, soldiers and military leaders, victims of violent crimes, and even religious leaders (Gandhi? Buddha? Perhaps even some "born-again" Christians?).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Hangdawg13, posted 02-21-2006 2:03 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 02-22-2006 7:11 AM DeclinetoState has replied
 Message 29 by Hangdawg13, posted 02-25-2006 1:43 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4132 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 6 of 44 (289417)
02-22-2006 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hal Jordan
02-21-2006 7:50 AM


Re: Yes, we are....
good luck finding a "True Christian" because there is no such animal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Hal Jordan, posted 02-21-2006 7:50 AM Hal Jordan has not replied

  
Chronos
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 102
From: Macomb, Mi, USA
Joined: 10-23-2005


Message 7 of 44 (289420)
02-22-2006 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Hangdawg13
02-21-2006 2:03 AM


"[God] takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Hell and death and hades are all thrown into the lake of fire at the end, so death and hell die too. They die in the fires of God's holiness. His holiness consumes all that is impure."
Maybe some parts of the bible give that message, but it's not exactly consistent. For example:
Revelation 14:9-11
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name"
Here we've got people being tormented "for ever and ever", in the presence of some angels and the lamb (Jesus?) no less. If hell dies/ends, the suffering cannot be everlasting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Hangdawg13, posted 02-21-2006 2:03 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Hangdawg13, posted 02-25-2006 1:52 PM Chronos has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 8 of 44 (289468)
02-22-2006 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by DeclinetoState
02-22-2006 1:10 AM


Re: What this all means
What it means is that right behavior is more difficult than going with the worldly flow or doing what everyone else is doing.
IMO, this verse isn't talking about Hell.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-22-2006 1:10 AM DeclinetoState has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-22-2006 7:18 PM purpledawn has replied

  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6460 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 9 of 44 (289623)
02-22-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by purpledawn
02-22-2006 7:11 AM


Re: What this all means
Purpledawn writes:
IMO, this verse isn't talking about Hell.
If Matt 7: 14 isn't talking about hell, what then is it talking about?
This message has been edited by DeclinetoState, 02-22-2006 07:23 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by purpledawn, posted 02-22-2006 7:11 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by purpledawn, posted 02-22-2006 7:24 PM DeclinetoState has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 10 of 44 (289624)
02-22-2006 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by DeclinetoState
02-22-2006 7:18 PM


Re: What this all means
I said it in Message 8.
It is nothing more than using figurative language to say that doing right behavior is more difficult than going with the worldly flow or doing what everyone else is doing.
Easier to go with the crowd than stand against it, etc.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-22-2006 7:18 PM DeclinetoState has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-23-2006 1:27 AM purpledawn has replied

  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6460 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 11 of 44 (289680)
02-23-2006 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by purpledawn
02-22-2006 7:24 PM


Re: What this all means
Purpledawn writes:
I said it in Message 8.
It is nothing more than using figurative language to say that doing right behavior is more difficult than going with the worldly flow or doing what everyone else is doing.
Easier to go with the crowd than stand against it, etc.
And many would assert that "going with the flow" is what makes it so easy for the devil to lead people to hell.
This message has been edited by DeclinetoState, 02-23-2006 12:17 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by purpledawn, posted 02-22-2006 7:24 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 02-23-2006 8:26 AM DeclinetoState has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3479 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 44 (289723)
02-23-2006 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by DeclinetoState
02-23-2006 1:27 AM


Re: What this all means
quote:
And many would asset that "going with the flow" is what makes it so easy for the devil to lead people to hell.
You can spin any lesson you wish off of it, but the text itself is ambiguous. It doesn't say anything about hell or talk about something that will happen after physical death.
IMO, Jesus was trying to get his people back to the heart of the Torah for the coming of the Kingdom. In this segment Jesus was teaching, not preaching. Although, personally, I think we are missing the meat of this lesson.
Remember this was supposedly said when the Kingdom was still coming to the Jews, this is not said after the resurrection.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-23-2006 1:27 AM DeclinetoState has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-23-2006 12:24 PM purpledawn has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4755
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 13 of 44 (289730)
02-23-2006 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DeclinetoState
02-20-2006 4:51 PM


Since we know who God chooses, when he describes the seperation of the sheep from the goats, then we know what to do, to avoid this, IMHO.
If this wasn't so, then why would God have described what would get you to heaven? Was he lying when he said that feeding the poor, and doing good etc..would get you there?
....So for me, that's what Jesus is saying; he's giving us the impetus to get of our butts and be sheep.
It's not some iron clad absolute statement about the future. It's just a statement to motivate people. If it was that most people will perish, then we could do nothing about it, as it would then be a prophecy. But Jesus has told us what we can do.
mike the wiz writes:
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many WILL enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few WILL find it."
The real quote is present-tense, which means that at that time in history, people were certainly taking the none-sheep path;
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
We forget so easily, that many of Christ's words were aimed at the people of his time, and his apostles.
Just because we read these words and study on them, doesn't mean that they speak DIRECTLY to us. Indirectly perhaps. Yet the seperation of the sheep from the goats, refers to all. It is certain, that if you are a sheep, then you will have life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-20-2006 4:51 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 44 (289774)
02-23-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DeclinetoState
02-20-2006 4:51 PM


Maybe, maybe not.
IMHO a lot of the folk, perhaps most of the folk, that think they are saved will find out they are wrong. Likewise, many, perhaps even most of the folk that never much worried about salvation will probably be saved.
Much of Jesus' teachings were to get across a very simple idea. There are two Great Commandments. Love GOD and love others as you love yourselves.
Everything else is based on those two commandments.
That is simple, but not easy to understand or apply. This was the lesson in Matthew 25. You don't love GOD by praising Him, by worshiping It or even by believing in Her. You show your love for GOD by what you do for others. Not big things, but the little things you don't have to do, but instead do just to help.
GOD took care of the issue of salvation. GOD forgave Man, and will continue to forgive Man. All He asks in return is that we try to do what is right.
But as you can see from this thread, and many others here at EvC or from pulpits all over the world, most folk simply don't get it.
I often compare the question of learning the WAY to learning Unix. Most folk think that Unix is complex, they make it hard. Really it's not. It is the simplest of all Operating Systems. There is stdin(standard input) and there is stdout(standard output). You chain things together to get the results you want. That's about it in a nutshell.
Unix is simple. But it's not easy.
Salvation too is simple. But it's not easy.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DeclinetoState, posted 02-20-2006 4:51 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
DeclinetoState
Member (Idle past 6460 days)
Posts: 158
Joined: 01-16-2006


Message 15 of 44 (289792)
02-23-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by purpledawn
02-23-2006 8:26 AM


Is this what this all means?
purpledawn writes:
IMO, Jesus was trying to get his people back to the heart of the Torah for the coming of the Kingdom. In this segment Jesus was teaching, not preaching.
So, purpledawn, are you saying that Jesus was talking about the consequences to be suffered at that time for the actions people were taking rather than whether those actions would lead them to heaven or hell?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 02-23-2006 8:26 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by purpledawn, posted 02-23-2006 9:04 PM DeclinetoState has not replied

  
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