Are Most Of Us Doomed? (Matt 7:13-14)

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So, purpledawn, are you saying that Jesus was talking about the consequences to be suffered at that time for the actions people were taking rather than whether those actions would lead them to heaven or hell?

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As I said the text is ambiguous. No specific consequences or actions are mentioned.The OT has many instances of warnings of destruction if God's laws aren't followed.Like I said before the text seems to be missing the specifics of the lesson.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

In Revelation 20 it speaks of the "2nd death" which those who are in the "1st resurrection" will escape and in one of the last 3 chapters of that book it says that death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire.Interesting it is that in discussing and debating science the secularists are soooo fussy about keeping everthing according to the books, but with the Bible, the ski's the limit on deviating from what the book says and teaches. Anything some folks like in it they simply allegorize it and interpret the words into oblivion so as to make it say just about anything to suit so as not to be held accountable to it's warnings and declarations. I believe this is because folks don't want to adjust the lifestyle and deal with what is regarded as sin in the book.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Critics of Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, criticize them for rejecting the teaching of a fiery hell. Yet if hell itself can be cast into the lake of fire, what in fact is hell?(My answer, FWIW: this shows the danger of taking too much of the Bible literally.)

So much for being forgiven,
So much for grace,The bible doesn't say you have to be perfect.Jesus came to save the world, not judge it, I don't see why we should take a bunch of bible verses and put them in an order, to explain why so many aren't going to make it. When the truth is, we just don't know.

It does "nothing impure shall enter heaven" It just doesn't suppose that we ourselves can make ourselves perfect. We need to be scrubbed clean. And its God wielding the scrubbing brush. He has a detergent which is up to the task too. Its called Jesus' blood.

Right, so we don't have to be perfect.

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In Revelation 20 it speaks of the "2nd death" which those who are in the "1st resurrection" will escape and in one of the last 3 chapters of that book it says that death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

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The author of Matthew is writing a bio of Jesus and his teachings. So the statement by Jesus was said about 30-33CE during his ministry. Revelation is a vision that happened about 90-95CE and is symbolic. So your verse isn't necessarily talking about physical destruction.The lead in to the teachings in Matthew start at chapter 5. And concluded in chapter 7. The valley of Hinnom is what is referred to during this session by Jesus. During his time it is a place where the dead bodies of criminals are disposed besides other refuse. A very good visual aid to try and deter criminal behavior. An incinerated body is completely destroyed and not able to be resurrected according to Judaism. So no part in the world to come.As I stated before, the verse we're discussing in Matthew is ambiguous. While I would agree that it could be interpreted to mean that following the "wide path" could lead to criminal actions and therefore the destructive judgment that goes with it, I don't agree that the verse refers to "hell" as in eternal punishment/fire/torment.

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Interesting it is that in discussing and debating science the secularists are soooo fussy about keeping everthing according to the books, but with the Bible, the ski's the limit on deviating from what the book says and teaches. Anything some folks like in it they simply allegorize it and interpret the words into oblivion so as to make it say just about anything to suit so as not to be held accountable to it's warnings and declarations. I believe this is because folks don't want to adjust the lifestyle and deal with what is regarded as sin in the book.

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Unless you have debated science with me and found me guilty of what you claim, please don't classify my discussion as a means of avoiding Biblical warnings and declarations.I may not agree with dogma and tradition, but I do study the Bible seriously. Many Biblical lessons guide my decisions in life.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Wrong. We have to be perfect. Its just that we don't make ourselves perfect - he does

lol, yes that is what I am saying, we don't have to be perfect.
Thanks to Him.

The problems I see with your interpretation are twofold:
1. Jesus is talking life vs destruction. He says that most will go the path of destruction and few will go the path of life.2. If the "destruction" could be due to criminal actions as seems to be your preferance, wouldn't you implying by this interpreation that all but those few who find life will be criminals according to Jesus? Most Biblical fundamentalists harmonize all the corroborating scriptures of given doctrines and interpret scripture with scripture. Other corroborating scriptures identify the destruction of those who miss eternal life as hell/Hades which is the abode of the unsaved dead until they are judged. After the judgement, Hades is cast into Gehena/the lake of fire as per Revelation 20. I was making a general statement and nothing personal. My apologies, since I could have worded it better. My observation has been that the broad and liberal interpretations of scripture often deal with accountability texts. If folks would treat the Bible like they do most other books, imo, they should let it say what the spoken words mean in a literal sense as they do with science books and other subjects to get it right. The convenient way to avoid accountability often seems to be to symbolize and alegorize away the scriptures which deal with punishment and accountability. This liberal way of dealing with scripture allows each to symbolize it to please themselves and destroys the literacy of the book.There are a number of texts which are symbolic, but the text always makes that clear. For example when Jesus spoke in parables the text specifies that he was so doing.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Perhaps to some, clarification is needed. The vicarious atoning sacrificial and substitutional death of the innocent perfect lamb Jesus, justifies the imperfect so as for God to be satisfied that the death penalty (abe: for sin)is paid. Thus when the judgement comes, the perfect sacricial blood of the perfect has already cleansed the sins of the imperfect believer, imputing the righteousness of Jesus upon the imperfect penitent recipient of the salvation offered by believing in and receiving Jesus as saviour.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 02-24-2006 09:53 PM

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Why do you say that? Everything about being saved is pure grace. From the work of salvation accomplished by Jesus to the ability to have the faith and receive that gift. "...through faith, and this, not from yourselves, but a gift of God, lest any man should boast." "For it is God who is working in you to will and to do of his good pleasure."True faith is power. Faith is dead if it brings no manifestation of the thing hoped for. If we hope to be made perfect, but are not, we've hoped in vain. Sure it does. One way or another we have to die to become perfect. We can either die while we live or die when we die, but we have to become perfect, and yeah, "with man this is impossible, but with God nothing is impossible." "Be it done to you according to your faith." Eternal life begins now, not when we die physically. True, but by saving some he brings judgment on others. Truth always brings both judgment and salvation, which is why Jesus said in John 9 "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind may see and those who see may become blind." Why is it okay to put a bunch of Bible verses together to explain why some are going to make it, but not okay to explain why some aren't?If any Bible verse makes us uncomfortable, we should look 100 times as hard at it to determine whether or not we've made an idol out of our own doctrines instead of listening to what the Word says.Yes, God is extremely merciful, and I entertain the possibility that perhaps He will reveal his mercy to those who were previously condemned or who go into the 2nd death. However, even if that were true, that is not revealed to us yet, so why should we preach our own suppositions?This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 02-25-2006 02:45 AM

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If folks would treat the Bible like they do most other books, imo, they should let it say what the spoken words mean in a literal sense as they do with science books and other subjects to get it right.

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Which is what I do. This includes seeing that the various books of the Bible are written by different authors, in different years, and different cultures. They weren't written to go together. One author is not necessarily supporting another. That's why I try to understand what the author was trying to say within his own writing.While older documents help us understand how beliefs progressed, trying to define an older document with a newer writing doesn't help us understand the original intention of the older writing.Hopefully this will help you understand my viewpoint.

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The problems I see with your interpretation are twofold:
1. Jesus is talking life vs destruction. He says that most will go the path of destruction and few will go the path of life.

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2. If the "destruction" could be due to criminal actions as seems to be your preferance, wouldn't you implying by this interpreation that all but those few who find life will be criminals according to Jesus?

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1. Yes, but as I said the statement is ambiguous. Neither the "path" of destruction or life are described.2. Destruction due to criminal actions is not my preference, just an example of another possibility.Because the statement is ambiguous, it can be applied to many lessons.My personal undertanding:
Jesus is teaching a group of Jews the finer points of Torah in preparation for the coming of the Kingdom of God. (Remember, this verse is before Christ's death)Many Jews in the early part of the century wanted to lessen some of the Jewish restrictions so that they could participate in some of the Greek functions.Even though the Greek ways seemed easier, they would lead to destruction. IOW, they would not have a place in the imminent coming of God's Kingdom. Israel would prevail and enemies would be destoyed by God. Torah is life.The OT has many instances of warnings of destruction if God's laws aren't followed. Not eternal torment.

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Other corroborating scriptures identify the destruction of those who miss eternal life as hell/Hades which is the abode of the unsaved dead until they are judged. After the judgement, Hades is cast into Gehena/the lake of fire as per Revelation 20.

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I disagree that Hades is the abode of the "unsaved" dead and the lake of fire in Revelation 20 again is part of a vision which is symbolic. It isn't automatically Gehenna or a literal fire.There is another thread discussing Hell if you really want to get into that discussion. The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal TormentBut as far as the Matthew verse, I don't feel the text supports that destruction means "hell", a place of eternal torment.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Yep. Jesus' kingdom is reversed from the worldly kingdoms. "Those who are first [in this world] will be last. And those who are last will be first." In Heaven there will be lots of African children and homeless folks, but few politicians and people who love and are loved by the world."God is no respecter of persons."

I wonder what the cut-off point is, economically speaking. I'm pretty poor, but probably not poor enough.