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Author Topic:   Does god have free will?
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4669 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 76 of 128 (149761)
10-13-2004 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by asciikerr
10-13-2004 4:20 PM


Re: Right On-Right On...
Hey asciiker, thank you very much for your response.

I want you to understand that I have read the bible from cover to cover on two occasions in my life. I have studied it, and at one point belived it as much as you, however the same issues mentioned above remain sticking points for me.

God made us, and this universe, for his plesure?

We are his playthings?

Personaly, if I were to choose a religion, I would not choose one that would have me be a bing created by another on a whim. Furthermore, god being omniscient, he knew well in advance what man would do, satan, etc.

He invinted satan, by proxy, he invented evil. If god snaped his fingers he could make all those things disapere. But it seems he enjoys this morbid little game of "see who burns". I personaly find it stupid and childish considering that he already knows the outcome anyway.

Ill look past the more sexist statements in your previus post and posit some more brain teasers. What about deformity, desise, etc.

Those things that arent the result of sin. Babies being born with organs outside their body because of some freakish gene being turned off. What about the oh so very arbitrary will on nature?

Huricanse, earthquakes, all of these seem in tune with an arbitrary world indifrent to morality more than the will of some god. If they are the will of a supreme being then that being is surely a cruel and sadistic one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by asciikerr, posted 10-13-2004 4:20 PM asciikerr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by asciikerr, posted 10-13-2004 9:24 PM Yaro has responded

  
asciikerr
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 128 (149762)
10-13-2004 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Chuck Diesel
10-13-2004 7:38 PM


Question 4 U...
I'd say your are implying the wrong conclusion here...
quote:
This is scary, as it implies that these persons would not know the difference between right and wrong if there were no bible to guide them. Try to picture Al Quaida and why they feel justified in beheading American/Brittish/S Korean 'infidels'...

Did you know that lusting after another women while your married is adultery? I that basic common knowledge!? Most people realize or know better than to look at another when they are in the company of their wife. But did you know that Jesus considers that adultery?

Matthew 5:27-28
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Most people probably wouldn't pick up on this, even though "most" would know what is morally right or wrong, we would read the Bible to know what it is God expects of us. Because I love God, read the Bible so that I may know how He would want me to conduct myself before others and live according to His Will.
2 Birds with One Stone: By obeying God I know that I please Him by my conduct in life and I know He wants the best for me. So in pleasing Him, I live the healthy abundant joyful life He would want me to have. This requires to be selfless, when your selfish..then pleasing yourself is not always best for you. But I'm sure you already knew that..


This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Chuck Diesel, posted 10-13-2004 7:38 PM Chuck Diesel has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Lammy, posted 10-13-2004 8:29 PM asciikerr has not yet responded

  
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3610
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 78 of 128 (149767)
10-13-2004 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by asciikerr
10-13-2004 8:03 PM


Re: Question 4 U...
asciikerr writes:

Did you know that lusting after another women while your married is adultery? I that basic common knowledge!? Most people realize or know better than to look at another when they are in the company of their wife. But did you know that Jesus considers that adultery?


Good, I'm glad I will never commit this sin ever.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by asciikerr, posted 10-13-2004 8:03 PM asciikerr has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by CK, posted 10-13-2004 8:54 PM Lammy has not yet responded

    
CK
Member (Idle past 2301 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 79 of 128 (149769)
10-13-2004 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Lammy
10-13-2004 8:29 PM


Re: Question 4 U...
me neither.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Lammy, posted 10-13-2004 8:29 PM Lammy has not yet responded

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 128 (149770)
10-13-2004 9:00 PM


Topic Drift Alert.
Getting way away from the question "Does god have free will?"


How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950
Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Lammy, posted 10-13-2004 9:13 PM AdminJar has not yet responded
 Message 83 by asciikerr, posted 10-13-2004 9:29 PM AdminJar has not yet responded

  
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3610
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 81 of 128 (149772)
10-13-2004 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by AdminJar
10-13-2004 9:00 PM


Re: Topic Drift Alert.
Actually, you should have warned asciikerr when he first posted his message. I find it amazing that after all that we have discussed that he still couldn't get the main point of the thread. Why do religious people have such trouble understanding simple concepts in other people's arguments? After his initial message there, I thought this thread might as well die since I really didn't feel like repeating myself again only to meet another person and having to repeat myself yet again, and again and again.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by AdminJar, posted 10-13-2004 9:00 PM AdminJar has not yet responded

    
asciikerr
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 128 (149775)
10-13-2004 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Yaro
10-13-2004 8:01 PM


Re: Right On-Right On...
quote:
Personaly, if I were to choose a religion, I would not choose one that would have me be a bing created by another on a whim.

God really has nothing to do w/Religion, that is just

quote:
God made us, and this universe, for his plesure?

Heaven is all about singing songs of praise and worship to God, heaven is only for those that don't mind that sort of thing. Spending our eternity with He who offered Himself as a sacrifice in our place. So, not only does He want our worship for Him, but He also layed down His life for us.

quote:
He invinted satan, by proxy, he invented evil. If god snaped his fingers he could make all those things disapere. But it seems he enjoys this morbid little game of "see who burns". I personaly find it stupid and childish considering that he already knows the outcome anyway.
He gave the angels Free-Will, and Satan of course wanted to be higher than God(Ezekiel 28:14-17). So even if God knows the choices you'll already make, would it have been better that you were never born? God probably doesn't think so, I'm sure He'd rather have you go through it all, because in His eyes...He still gets to love you none the less.

quote:
Ill look past the more sexist statements in your previus post
Not sure about any sexist statements made.

quote:
Huricanse, earthquakes, all of these seem in tune with an arbitrary world indifrent to morality more than the will of some god. If they are the will of a supreme being then that being is surely a cruel and sadistic one.
Prophecy fortells of the increase in Earthquakes, much like Birth-Pangs before God is ready to rap it up. So if you ever study the history of earthquakes, you will notice that they now happen more often, at greater strength & longer. Just like when a women is due for labor(Matthew 24:7-8). Cruel or Sadistic, I'm not sure..He is the Judge, who am I to judge Him? I do knw that "All things work together for the good to those who love God" (Romans 8:28).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Yaro, posted 10-13-2004 8:01 PM Yaro has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Yaro, posted 10-13-2004 9:43 PM asciikerr has responded

  
asciikerr
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 128 (149778)
10-13-2004 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by AdminJar
10-13-2004 9:00 PM


Re: Topic Drift Alert.
Sorry AdminJar,

My last post went out before I seen this...my bad! Yes God has free will. Just like He chooses not to hear their cries...

Ezekiel 8:18
"...Therefore I also will act in fury. My eye will not spare nor will I have pity; and though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by AdminJar, posted 10-13-2004 9:00 PM AdminJar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Lammy, posted 10-13-2004 9:54 PM asciikerr has not yet responded

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 4669 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 84 of 128 (149780)
10-13-2004 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by asciikerr
10-13-2004 9:24 PM


Re: Right On-Right On...
God really has nothing to do w/Religion, that is just

How else do you learn of God if not through one of the worlds many religions?

Heaven is all about singing songs of praise and worship to God, heaven is only for those that don't mind that sort of thing. Spending our eternity with He who offered Himself as a sacrifice in our place. So, not only does He want our worship for Him, but He also layed down His life for us.

That's just it, he didn't have to lay down his life for us! In fact, the very act is meaningless. How can God die? God can be made man and die 100 times and he will be none the worse for wear because he's God! See what I'm saying?

If I die in Mario Bros. It's ok 'cuz I always get a restart. God's in the same boat. Whats the big deal if he died or not, It's all a charade anyway. He's gonna get up at the end of the play, wipe off the stage blood, take a bow, and go back to heaven.

Meanwhile were all left down here suffering.

He gave the angels Free-Will, and Satan of course wanted to be higher than God(Ezekiel 28:14-17). So even if God knows the choices you'll already make, would it have been better that you were never born?

Perhaps. I would have gladly given up my existence if it meant evil/pain/suffering would not exist.

God probably doesn't think so, I'm sure He'd rather have you go through it all, because in His eyes...He still gets to love you none the less.

So I am here for his own selfish amusement? And how does this make him a 'good' god?

Prophecy fortells of the increase in Earthquakes, much like Birth-Pangs before God is ready to rap it up. So if you ever study the history of earthquakes, you will notice that they now happen more often, at greater strength & longer. Just like when a women is due for labor(Matthew 24:7-8). Cruel or Sadistic, I'm not sure..He is the Judge, who am I to judge Him? I do knw that "All things work together for the good to those who love God" (Romans 8:28).

Actually they aren't

from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_cul4.htm

bullet Earthquakes are increasing: The rumor is that earthquakes have been increasing in frequency and/or intensity in recent years. This legend is often heard in connection with end-time prophecy - predictions about a coming end-of-the-world scenario. This is commonly called TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It). Conservative Christians generally interpret Matthew 24:6-16 as predicting the precursors that will be observed prior to the tribulation, rapture, second coming of Jesus, war of Armageddon, etc. Matthew 24:7 states: "...there will be earthquakes in diverse places." Since many religious conservative anticipate the end of the world in the immediate future, perhaps in the year 2000, they naturally assume that the Bible's predictions refer to the present time, and that earthquakes are currently on the increase. Actually, they are decreasing. Geologist Steve Austin said on the ICR program that he has a data base containing information on about 4 million earthquakes. Their frequency has been decreasing during the 20th century.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by asciikerr, posted 10-13-2004 9:24 PM asciikerr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by asciikerr, posted 10-13-2004 11:12 PM Yaro has not yet responded

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 128 (149782)
10-13-2004 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Chuck Diesel
10-13-2004 7:33 PM


Re: Right On-Right On...
Gen. 1:26, ". . . and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Diesel

The hebrew word used for 'dominion' here literally means 'shepherd'.


No, it doesn't.

The Hebrew word for "shepherd" is רעה (ra'ah).

רעה (ra'ah) - tend a flock; gen. rule; by extension: associate with (as a friend).

The Hebrew term translated "dominion" (in the KJV) in Gen. 1:26 and Gen. 1:28 is רדה (radah).

רדה (radah) - to tread down, i.e. subjugate; prevail against; chastise; reign over.

cf:

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, James Strong, Thomas Nelson Pub.

The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, F. Brown, S. Driver, and C. Briggs, Hendrickson Pub.

The Hebrew & Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, Ludwig Koehler and Walter Baumgartner, study ed., vol. 2, Brill Pub.

Thought you ought to know,

Amlodhi


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Chuck Diesel, posted 10-13-2004 7:33 PM Chuck Diesel has not yet responded

  
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3610
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 86 of 128 (149783)
10-13-2004 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by asciikerr
10-13-2004 9:29 PM


Re: Topic Drift Alert.
This thread sprung out of this thread.

I don't think there's any doubt, using common sense, that god has free will, if we think that god is an intelligent being. However, we discussed in the other thread a dilemma that was first brought up by Socrates. It is not as simple as asserting that god has free will.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by asciikerr, posted 10-13-2004 9:29 PM asciikerr has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by tsig, posted 10-13-2004 10:25 PM Lammy has responded

    
tsig
Member (Idle past 1082 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 87 of 128 (149789)
10-13-2004 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Lammy
10-13-2004 9:54 PM


Re: Topic Drift Alert. possibly terminal
To answer your question that you raised in the other forum, I,m an ex-catholic seminarian, an ex-airman and an athiest. The earth is 4.6 billion years old and somewhere in the reducing atmosphere of the early earth a self-replication unit formed. The rest is history.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Lammy, posted 10-13-2004 9:54 PM Lammy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Lammy, posted 10-13-2004 10:33 PM tsig has responded

    
Lammy
Member
Posts: 3610
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 88 of 128 (149791)
10-13-2004 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by tsig
10-13-2004 10:25 PM


Re: Topic Drift Alert. possibly terminal
Um... why did you ask me if I thought you were coherent or not if you weren't a YEC?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by tsig, posted 10-13-2004 10:25 PM tsig has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by tsig, posted 10-13-2004 10:39 PM Lammy has responded

    
tsig
Member (Idle past 1082 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 89 of 128 (149793)
10-13-2004 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Lammy
10-13-2004 10:33 PM


Re: Topic Drift Alert. possibly terminal
You had asked a question of what kind a a jury one would want. My question was in the context of your question about the jury, maybe if you're guilty you might want a jury with less fact checking skills.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Lammy, posted 10-13-2004 10:33 PM Lammy has responded

Replies to this message:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 128 (149794)
10-13-2004 10:43 PM


Is this about played out?
Lam, do you see this going much further or has just about everything been covered?

Seems like we're talking about everything except free will, or is this meant as an example?


How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950
Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by tsig, posted 10-13-2004 11:05 PM AdminJar has not yet responded
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