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Author Topic:   Does god have free will?
b b
Member (Idle past 4207 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 106 of 128 (246387)
09-25-2005 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by nator
09-25-2005 8:55 PM


Re: Daddy
Good and Evil is cuz he said what was good and what was evil. Obey him or you are evil. That's a harsh way of looking at the truth.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by nator, posted 09-25-2005 8:55 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 09-26-2005 4:41 AM b b has responded
 Message 108 by nator, posted 09-26-2005 8:19 AM b b has responded
 Message 115 by DrJones*, posted 09-29-2005 2:41 AM b b has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 107 of 128 (246451)
09-26-2005 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by b b
09-25-2005 9:25 PM


Re: Daddy
Hey, bb...welcome to EvC.. who taught you about God?

That is my first question.
2) Where is God right now?
3) Do we have to go to church?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by b b, posted 09-25-2005 9:25 PM b b has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by nator, posted 09-26-2005 8:26 AM Phat has responded
 Message 113 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 1:09 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 245 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 108 of 128 (246479)
09-26-2005 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by b b
09-25-2005 9:25 PM


Re: Daddy
quote:
Good and Evil is cuz he said what was good and what was evil. Obey him or you are evil. That's a harsh way of looking at the truth.

But according to Genesis in the Bible, when Adam and Eve ate of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they attained that ability.

As in, eating the Fruit gave them the same capacity as God to discern Good from Evil:

(italics mine)

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Adam and Eve were becoming like "one of us" (for now I'll ignore discussion of the obvious mention by God that there are other gods), so that's why they got kicked out of the Garden, right?

So, now do you agree that humans, since Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, have exactly the same ability to know Good from Evil as God?

And therefore can judge God's actions or inaction as Good or Evil?

This message has been edited by schrafinator, 09-26-2005 08:21 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by b b, posted 09-25-2005 9:25 PM b b has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 2:35 AM nator has responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 245 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 109 of 128 (246480)
09-26-2005 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
09-26-2005 4:41 AM


Re: Daddy
quote:
who taught you about God?

Well, God did, obviously, right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 09-26-2005 4:41 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-26-2005 8:34 AM nator has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 110 of 128 (246481)
09-26-2005 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by nator
09-26-2005 8:26 AM


Schraff was right
We learn "about God" from our parents and society. Yes...*sigh* you said it first!

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-26-2005 06:56 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by nator, posted 09-26-2005 8:26 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 09-26-2005 8:58 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 245 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 111 of 128 (246489)
09-26-2005 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
09-26-2005 8:34 AM


Re: Schraff was right
I wish I could, but the chat function doesn't work for me.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-26-2005 8:34 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
tsig
Member (Idle past 984 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 112 of 128 (246642)
09-26-2005 6:54 PM


no response
Thanks for the reply, but I don't feel that a reply would help either one of us so goodby to this theread.
    
b b
Member (Idle past 4207 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 113 of 128 (247162)
09-29-2005 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
09-26-2005 4:41 AM


Re: Daddy
Hey, bb...welcome to EvC.. who taught you about God?

initially my parents/church. I was very good in science(did well from grade school to college). I did not major in science so I'm not proclaiming to be an expert or anything. I do have, however, an excellent basic understanding of it and a genuine interest in it. All of my life experiences, not only what's above, lead me to my own ideas/beliefs in God which are different from that of my parents, church, and science.

WHO TAUGHT YOU ABOUT SCIENCE? Newton? Darwin? Or are you one of the only ones to learn science from coming up with your own ideas and experiments to test every theory that you, yourself came up with. (I know you're not supposed to end with a preposition, but I like to) You may not agree, but science is a religion also. Mans own religion based on teachings of early scientists. AND YOU ARE THE DISCIPLES.

2) Where is God right now?

HOW THE HELL DO I KNOW?

3) Do we have to go to church?

If I remember correctly, the bible says it's good to fellowship(not in those exact words). In order to be "saved" you must simply confess with your mouth your belief that Jesus (the son of God) died for your sins and rose again. Basically, I believe it's saying you must genuinely believe in God and his son. That's it. So my answer is no, I don't think you HAVE TO go to chuch; but it's there to help you stay focused. God knew that people generally are what they hang around. Hang with crooks-you may steal
Hang with devoted followers of christ or your religion - you most likely will stay strong longer.

This message has been edited by b b, 09-29-2005 01:18 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 09-26-2005 4:41 AM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by nwr, posted 09-29-2005 8:10 AM b b has not yet responded

  
b b
Member (Idle past 4207 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 114 of 128 (247165)
09-29-2005 2:35 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by nator
09-26-2005 8:19 AM


Re: Daddy
schraf. . . .
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

that statement does not say

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become one of us.

we became like them (God and his angels who may be called in some religions gods-there is most of the times one God over the rest. ex Zeus) in that we know good from evil. we have the ability to know good and evil; God has the ability to set/change what is good and evil(not that he will change but can). Angels also know good and evil, but only god says what is good and evil. He decided in the beginning what was good and evil.

and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

and now, unless he reach out to me, and eat of my fruit, and live forever;

Is this the end of the sentence or did you just happen to leave out the rest?

So, now do you agree that humans, since Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, have exactly the same ability to know Good from Evil as God?

No, because I can read and understand what I'm reading. Newton's law(I think it's Newton but really don't care) of {what goes up must come down} would not be interpreted to say anything about what goes sideways. Only up. Therefore, it says at a literal interpretation

The man is similar to us in that he knows good and evil.

What was your grade in English? I think it's very convenient how you made both of these say what you want it to say. But most people do this. That's how you get so many religions that use the same bible. For some reason I think you are purposely giving almost correct info. Just tell me what comes after "live forever"

(caps mine)

And therefore can MAN judge God's actions or inaction as Good or Evil?

Answer two questions truthfully for me please, and I'll answer yours. If God comes to earth in the next five minutes and it's without a shadow of a doubt who he is, would you tell him he was wrong for such and such. And if for some reason you are one of the ones who would do this, how would you punish him?

I think everyone knows what you would really do; I just want to see if you would admit it or weasel out of the questions. Your answer to my questions should reveal my answer to yours. Can a man judge God? People do it everyday when they hate God for taking someone or letting them be taken away. Can you actually pass judgement/punishment on God? If you try please e-mail me before, so I can get my camcorder and record the funniest reality show ever created. "Morons on Fire" I think it has a nice ring to it. It'll probably be hard to get a new contestant though.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by nator, posted 09-26-2005 8:19 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by nator, posted 10-02-2005 9:45 AM b b has responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1805
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 115 of 128 (247166)
09-29-2005 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by b b
09-25-2005 9:25 PM


Re: Daddy
Good and Evil is cuz he said what was good and what was evil. Obey him or you are evil.

So if this "God" fellow apparated into your living room and commanded you to slay your neighbor you would?


If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by b b, posted 09-25-2005 9:25 PM b b has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 3:16 AM DrJones* has responded

  
b b
Member (Idle past 4207 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 116 of 128 (247169)
09-29-2005 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by DrJones*
09-29-2005 2:41 AM


Re: Daddy
(PARENTHESIS MINE)
So if this "God" fellow (My God is not a fellow as if to humanize him) apparated into your living room and commanded you to slay your neighbor you would?

No. See above parenthesis for explanation.
If the one and only God told me to kill everybody, I would be the "God's Hand" serial killer. Someone in the Bible (don't know for sure who so I won't say) was willing to kill his own son because God said so. I will admit I am a little selfish. I would care more about sparring my own soul than to spare my neighbors life, even if I was good friends with my neighbor. Also kamakazee, in my opinion, would be an insane act, unless the actor had religious instruction or believed to have had religious instruction. <-- (This statement is a lot deeper than what it may appear. I have my reasons for not explaining this one. Hopefully, someone would get it's implications) But better yet, if God appeared in front of you and told you to kill your self, YOU WOULD.

This message has been edited by b b, 09-29-2005 03:30 AM

This message has been edited by b b, 09-29-2005 03:33 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by DrJones*, posted 09-29-2005 2:41 AM DrJones* has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by DrJones*, posted 09-29-2005 3:38 AM b b has responded
 Message 118 by Phat, posted 09-29-2005 3:52 AM b b has not yet responded

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1805
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 117 of 128 (247177)
09-29-2005 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by b b
09-29-2005 3:16 AM


Re: Daddy
in the Bible (don't know for sure who so I won't say) was willing to kill his own son because God said so

It was Abraham, you claim to be christian and yet don't know this? I know this and I'm not a beleiver of your mythology.

If the one and only God told me to kill everybody, I would be the "God's Hand" serial killer

I will admit I am a little selfish. I would care more about sparring my own soul than to spare my neighbors life, even if I was good friends with my neighbor.

So you admit to being a sociopath. You have no morals of your own beyond what some imaginary being deems to be right or wrong.

But better yet, if God appeared in front of you and told you to kill your self, YOU WOULD.

No I wouldn't, I'd tell your mythical being to go fuck himself and then happily await his smiting by Odin the Allfather, King of Kings and Lord of Lords.


If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor
This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 3:16 AM b b has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by b b, posted 10-04-2005 3:02 AM DrJones* has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 118 of 128 (247181)
09-29-2005 3:52 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by b b
09-29-2005 3:16 AM


Re: Daddy
bb meet me in the chatroom
This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 3:16 AM b b has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 119 of 128 (247209)
09-29-2005 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by b b
09-29-2005 1:09 AM


Re: Daddy
b b writes:

You may not agree, but science is a religion also. Mans own religion based on teachings of early scientists. AND YOU ARE THE DISCIPLES.


Wow! That's badly mistaken.

Science is very different from religions. What scientists believe is based on evidence, not on faith. That's a huge difference.

Your comment about "teachings of early scientists" is badly mistaken. Most of the teachings of early scientists have been superseded by newer science. And that's highlights the difference between science an religion. Science is skeptical, and willing to overturn the old when the evidence so indicates.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 1:09 AM b b has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Phat, posted 09-29-2005 12:23 PM nwr has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 120 of 128 (247299)
09-29-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by nwr
09-29-2005 8:10 AM


Re: Daddy
PaulK writes:

Science is skeptical, and willing to overturn the old when the evidence so indicates.

Whereas we can't/won't do that in religion....What is the origin of "religion"?

1) What one has been taught? (As Schraff suggests) or..

2) What has been imparted from God to us. As I have maintained.(although religion and spirituality are not the same thing)

And yet...the origin of 1 and 2 could be two different sources.

1 could be human wisdom, whereas 2 could be God Himself!

Here is the final conundrum:

If well meaning Christians throughout the ages have maintained that they know God and then attempt to be the spokesmen for God, they could fall into the trap of becoming gods themselves...."knowing right from wrong....legislating morality....and attributing it all to divine impartation! :eek:

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-29-2005 10:25 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by nwr, posted 09-29-2005 8:10 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
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