Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)

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but you are denying the simple fact that at this very moment you have enough information to change your mind.

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Well, I don't.

"...the flaw in Schraf's soul..."Finally, some notoriety!A thread about the flaws in my soul.

Faith, for a moment, I'd like you to believe, without a single shadow of a doubt in your mind, that you are male.Can you do it?No?Well, then why do you think that someone can simply believe in "things unseen" by trying hard?I can't just "decide" to have religious faith, any more than you can just "decide" to believe that you are male.

Jar, you're really a very nice man. If there exists a God or gods, I would certainly hope s/he/it is at least as moral as I try to be.My morality and sense of fairness seems to be at odds with the God touted by most of the Christians I have discussed such things with.If I ever meet your God, I think we'll get along great.I like a God who throws a good barbeque.

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All who sincerely want to be saved God's way will be saved.

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I sincerely wanted to be saved, but I couldn't make myself believe.Nobody can make themselves believe anything.So, if I tried sincerely for years to believe, but couldn't, God is going to damn me for all eternity?

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To add to that, I'd just like to say that if there is a sighn saying "mind the hole" and you read the sign and don't mind the hole and fall down, who's fault is it?

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What if God made me blind from birth, so I am unable to read the sign?Sounds kind of cruel to me.

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But Shraff, there are things you don't know nor can know but that you must simply believe.

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Like what?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-01-2005 10:04 PM

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If you think trying to be moral is the best one can do, then you must agree that anything you do wrong means you're imperfect and renders your righteousness meaningless. What will atone for you wrongs?

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Where did I ever say I was righteous?Why do you think humans have to be perfect?Why do my failures need anyone else but me to atone for them?

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Do you agree that justice should be done? If justice should be done always, then you must pay for your wrongs always.

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Well, I try to lead a life in which I am responsible for my actions and if I caus someone pain, I try to make things right.

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What if you haven't paid for them all?

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Then I haven't paid for them all.Life isn't fair.

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Would God be just if he let you off on any wrongs?

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Surely, God does not expect all of us flawed, frail humans to be perfect in action and deed at all times.After all, he makes mistakes in the Bible all the time.

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If he let you off, he would be a moral relativist like you, and his absolute righteousness would mean nothing.

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Well, it certainly seems that in choosing to not make himself known to me in such a way that I become a believer, God is deliberately sending me to hell.

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For you to hope God is as moral as you is the greatest delusion I've ever been witness to. What an utterly worldly thing to say, it's so bizarre a statement to anyone who has biblical knowledge. The bible says that only God is good.

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Um, have you ever read the Old Testament? It's a nearly constant bloodbath.God orders a great deal of genocide, rape, pillaging, incest, and general death and destruction.

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Listen, Jar says nice things to you, and says you'll go to heaven and me hell, but I strive to show you that Christ is the way, and he that believes in him will never die.

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Just for an hour, stop believing in Christ.Try really hard to truly be a hardcore, militant Athiest.It's just for an hour.Go on, it should be easy.

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Don't you think I would like to say, "a few more good works and you're in heaven Shraff"? I would like to, but unlike Jar, I don't think I'm God.

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If you are an example of the kind of fearful, joyless Christian Jesus likes, I'm not that interested.

What would be more impressive to God?A person who does the "right thing"a) because he fears eternal punishment,and/orb) is trying to earn an eternal reward,orc) because "doing the right thing" is reward enough?

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What is the "right thing" ifmorals are relative like unbelievers preach.

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But all morals are relative.That is self-evidenct.Is it always immoral to commit genocide and rape?Or, is it OK as long as God tells you to?That sounds pretty relativist to me.

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If you said, "I hope God is atleast as moral as me" and Jack the ripper said "I hope God is atleast as moral as me", if relativism is correct, then why should God be like you rather than Jack the ripper?

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If it is presumed that God knows each person's heart, wouldn't He know if each person was doing the best he could morally?If someone was a believer in Christ and tried his very best to follow the moral rules of the Bible, but it turns out that he actually misunderstood some key points and was doing a bunch of stuff very against Christ's teachings due to this misunderstnading, would God damn this person to hell?The value of moral standards can be judged by their usefulness to maintaining a civil society in which people live together and cause each other as little harm as possible.

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Jack kept his moral, to only kill women, and he never transgressed that moral by killing a man. He might be more moral than you.

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He killed people, so he violated a major moral standard of mine.Of course, if he was insane, he really can't be held responsible for his actions.Tell me, do you think God sends mentally ill people to hell for their actions?

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As for your question, "b" person doesn't exist.

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OK, Christianity is solely about the fear of retribution, then.

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We do good to please God, and the NT says we are "unprofitable servants", therefore we do good, but more importantly, we believe good exists and that it is absolute.

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OK

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So how can you do the right thing when you don't even believe good exists?

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I certainly believe that "good" exists, just not that it is absolute or that any one religion or moral system has a lock on defining it.Was it "good" for God to order the genocide of an entire nation of people; men, women, and infants?Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think genocide is ever "good" in any way

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there is no good action, because it's relative? Your good action might be another unbelievers evil action.

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My "genocide and rape" is clearly your "God ordered moral holy bloodbath and the good and moral use of women as the spoils of war".This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-02-2005 09:16 AM

Was it "good" for God to order the genocide of an entire nation of people; men, women, and infants?

So, if someone were to claim that God told them to kill all the Islamic settlers in "Palestine" (men, women, and children), for example, then it would be OK?

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Where is your evidence that God done this?

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Don't you read your bible? Want more? There's lost of stuff like this in there.

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Is it good to abort children?

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Is it good to force women to carry pregnancies to term against their will?

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If morals are relative, then I'll assume you're happy with a Jack the Ripper God because he dilligently obeys his moral to only kill women.

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If morals are absolute, then I'll assume that you're happy with God ordering the genocide of entire nations, the killing of male children, and the taking of the captured females as the spoils of war, presumably to rape.If someone was a believer in Christ and tried his very best to follow the moral rules of the Bible, but it turns out that he actually misunderstood some key points and was doing a bunch of stuff very against Christ's teachings due to this misunderstnading, would God damn this person to hell?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-02-2005 10:04 AM

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No, because they would be deceived, as that wouldn't be God telling them that.

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How do you know that God isn't telling them that?

But God told people to commit genocide, kill male infants, and take women as the spoils of war in the past.Why wouldn't he do so again?