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Author Topic:   Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 69 of 306 (213334)
06-01-2005 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by robinrohan
06-01-2005 5:49 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
He does not know that certain people WILL die as atheists. He just sees them dying as atheists at the same time that he sees them being born and the universe being created. He's not making them do it; He's just watching them.
Hence, they have free will.
His just watching them, hence they have free will? Robin doesn't this sound like a non sequitur to you?
Let's see, I am just watching the moon rise, hence the moon has freewill?
really?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:49 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by robinrohan, posted 06-02-2005 1:23 PM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 71 of 306 (213342)
06-01-2005 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Percy
06-01-2005 8:37 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
He sounds more like the product of a typical human guilt complex, more psychology than religion.
Percy,
You hit the nail on the head. This is the crux. The beautiful gimmick that the Jewish priests came up with and that was imported into Christianity. The representives of God are always right, the followers are guilty. If anything goes bad it's the followers fault so they can't blame Yahweh and seek another religion. This is the perfect scam to stay in power. And many people flock to such authorities because of the strength and security they offer. It's a good franchise as Falwell and Robertson, the Pope, even Mohammed and Joseph Smith discovered. One can go very far in the religion scam with nothing more than confidence and artistry of a melodramatic style!
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 8:37 PM Percy has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 123 of 306 (213487)
06-02-2005 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 10:27 AM


Re: Check mate VS Omnipotence????
Therefore God becomes a spectator, and his good will and intention remains the same. Ultimately, it's our own will that is the cause. We can decide what we want, all God does is give us the chance to.
Hypothetical: I'm a parent and keep in my house loaded guns, poison, all kinds of things that are deadly. I am bigger, stronger, and more knowledgable than my children. I tell them about the guns and that if they point them at one another pull the trigger they can kill one another. I tell them this is a bad thing, don't do it.
I decide to "become a spectator". I love my children and want them to be happy and safe and grow up. But I decide they need to exercise their free will and I want to see what happens. They are playing Star Wars or Cops and Robbers, or get in a fight over some toy, I don't know. One of them in either childish anger or caught up in fantasy picks up a loaded gun points it at their brother. I watch, curious to see what will happen. I could stop it. I don't want them to shoot their sibling but I choose to be a spectator.
The child pulls the trigger and kills their brother. I'm not responsible. The child is. They had free will and I had told them what would happen and not to do it. I was there. I could have stopped it but I chose to be a spectator.
Therefore, I'm not to blame, it's the child's fault.
Is this your position? It certainly sounds like what you are saying.
lfen
edited a typo
This message has been edited by lfen, 06-02-2005 08:15 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 10:27 AM J. Davis has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 125 of 306 (213489)
06-02-2005 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Faith
06-02-2005 10:38 AM


Re: You left out one important bit
Christianity is not a religion, strictly speaking, it is simply the truth God gave to humanity.
This is news to me! Strictly speaking what then is a religion?
How do you qualify or decide which of the world's "religions" or belief systems are or aren't religion? Is Judaism a religion?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 10:38 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 11:22 AM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 131 of 306 (213499)
06-02-2005 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by J. Davis
06-02-2005 11:19 AM


I hereby claim my argument as irrefutably unrefuted and have no more to say.
Ah thank you, your Highness. We all appreciate that you have deigned to make your profound announcement post priori about your a priori infallibilty. As you are omniscient and utterly irresponsible we no longer need pay any attention to your meaningless blather.
The gift of your silence is much appreciated. I hope to not see you around.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by J. Davis, posted 06-02-2005 11:19 AM J. Davis has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 139 of 306 (213521)
06-02-2005 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by Faith
06-02-2005 11:22 AM


Re: religion vs. truth
I understand you. Thank you.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Faith, posted 06-02-2005 11:22 AM Faith has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 149 of 306 (213561)
06-02-2005 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by robinrohan
06-02-2005 1:23 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Therefore he knows that certain people will die as atheists.
He does not know that certain people WILL die as atheists. He just sees them dying as atheists at the same time that he sees them being born and the universe being created. He's not making them do it; He's just watching them.
Hence, they have free will.
It's an answer to the question, if God foreknows all, then we have no free will. But he doesn't foreknow anything.
That is the complete message I was responding to. I think there is a big gap between "not making them do it; He's just watching them." and "Hence, they have free will."
Free will though apparently obvious is very obscure. The advaitist argument of Wayne Liquorman and his guru Ramesh Balsekar is that there isn't free will. That just as science suspects it's all conditioning and response, and consciousness does indeed just watch it.
Someone told me about going to see the latest Star War movie and how their friends left in tears. Nobody really died and no one in the movie had free will either, it was a script the ending was already on the film along with the opening, but those in the audience were identified. In a similiar way consciousness identifies with the unfolding process of the organism and it's conflicts and is under the illusion that it is the organism and is making decisions. Awakening is when that "divine hypnosis" is removed and one realizes that one was never the organism, one was free all along along, but that is not within phenomenality. It is transcendent freedom.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by robinrohan, posted 06-02-2005 1:23 PM robinrohan has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 195 of 306 (214204)
06-04-2005 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Percy
06-04-2005 1:52 PM


Re: Answering the Question: Is God Cruel?
Once again you present your beliefs as axioms to be accepted without question
Surprise, surprise! ... She's a fundamentalist Christian. That is what the religion is about; accepting without question fanastical things. You get to deny this world and live in world that is 6000 years old, that was once totally immersed in water, and someday you will live forever.
It makes her feel better and she can deny science and does. Why would she change her beliefs for the uncertainties and the boring tedious difficulties of trying to understand science?
... and yet it might happen. And the Cubs might win the pennant, after all God moves in mysterious ways!
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Percy, posted 06-04-2005 1:52 PM Percy has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 197 of 306 (214248)
06-04-2005 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Modulous
06-04-2005 5:05 PM


Re: Reconciling the apparant paradoxes
Strangely I have a new found new respect for Christianity. Personally,
Good show! But when your brain has recovered a bit I'd like to ask which Christianity?
I don't think its faith that's needed, but a suspension of disbelief. The one thing I can't get my head around is that blasted Trinity. So He sent his Son, who was Himself, down to the World, to die for us (even though He cannot die), his last word's were to himself, asking why he had forsaken himself, and then went up to heaven to sit at his own right hand. And that doesn't touch the third part of the trinity.
Last year there was a woman here (I can't remember her name) who was a bibical literalist protestant who didn't believe in the Trinity either and made a good case for what is called Arianism.
Suspension of disbelief is that like giving up common sense? There was no Garden of Eden, no Tree of Knowledge, etc. I've no idea how modern people can believe such things existed. To live in the real world and live in this ancient myth world as if it is this world and call this pretending metaphysical or spiritual and then feel superior for having done this is something that leaves me gaping
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Modulous, posted 06-04-2005 5:05 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Modulous, posted 06-04-2005 6:41 PM lfen has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 204 of 306 (214293)
06-04-2005 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by DrJones*
06-04-2005 8:13 PM


If God apparated himself into your living room and commanded you to kill your neighbour you'd do it gladly?
You're scaring me. Be very careful with this. You do realize that there are people who do just that when the apparation tells them to?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by DrJones*, posted 06-04-2005 8:13 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by DrJones*, posted 06-04-2005 8:27 PM lfen has not replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 213 of 306 (214384)
06-04-2005 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
06-04-2005 9:10 PM


Re: Belief in Action
Jesus PROVED by his life and his actions that He is God -- this is what we are asked to believe, what He said and did.
Mohammed just TELLS you Allah is God and Mohammed is his prophet and didn't do a thing to prove any of it.
Well, Paul just tell us that Jesus was sacrificed and so we are saved. I don't see how that is all that different from what Mohammed is doing.
Paul's proofs are pretty much the same in that the believers can have experiences of the Holy Spirit or Jesus also. Where is there any proof other than the self fulfilling prophecy of expectations being manifested in some religious experience or other?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 06-04-2005 9:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 06-05-2005 12:08 AM lfen has replied

lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 215 of 306 (214394)
06-05-2005 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
06-05-2005 12:08 AM


Re: Belief in Action
the history of God's work in the world. The proof is amply documented in the life of Jesus and his disciples including Paul, who had the power to perform miracles to demonstrate that God was the origin of the Way they taught.
By "history of God's work in the world" you are referring to the Old Testament?
"The proof is amply documented in the life of Jesus and his desciples including Paul". Aside from the the Gospels and the Epistles where is there any unforged or unequivocal documentation for the life of Jesus?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Faith, posted 06-05-2005 12:08 AM Faith has not replied

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