Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)

I don't think we have freewill to be honest, at least no freewill to the extent that there are "unlimited choices" that we can choose from. In other words, I think we have the capacity to chose between a very limited and finte set of paths in life.These limits do not remove our ability to make choices per se. But it does limit the amount of choices we can make, thus undermining some of the basic tenents of what some would call free-will.To expand on this further and apply it to God, I think God knew in advance that there's bascially only a few choices that one can make in any situation. It's true that he apparently knows in advance which choices we will make, but this doesn't mean that he made us choose them.Look at it this way. If I dig a large ditch and explain to everyone that this is to be employed for a cistern, I'd probably warn people of the cistern and explain how it can be very dangerous to people who play around it. I'd probably even put a sign up saying, "Warning! Stay Away! This is a dangerous area!" I would probably even place certain workers there to warn others and even keep them away from the dangerous pit.If others see the pit, choose to ignore this warning, walk past the workers and inevitably fall into the pit and become injured, is this considered my fault?Coming back to the "limited scope" of the supposed notions of free-will, we see there is really only two possible events possibel to happen: either they will fall in the pit or else they won't fall in the pit.Having said this, there's still other variations that can spin off from these two possible happenings.For example, if the person doesn't fall in the pit, there could be many reasons why this is so. In one instance it might be due to the fact that they didn't even know about the pit and just never went anywhere near it. In another instance it might be that they did almost fall in, back that they grapped ahold of something before falling or maybe one of the workers caught them at the last minute. Yet, in another instance, it might be because they had the skill and ingenuity to make a covering or bridge that could support their weight.On the other hand, if the person does fall into the pit, there could be many reasons why this is so. In one instance it might be due to the fact that they just charged the pit out of curiousity and had the physical power to knock their way past the workers (thus falling headlong in). In another instance it might be that they did almost get around it, but then slipped on the side and fell in anyway. Yet, in another instance, it might be because they lacked the skill and ingenuity to make a covering or bridge that could support their weight -- and their support broke when trying to cross over for whatever reason.No matter which way you look at it, you will either:A) fall in the pit.orB) not fall in the pit.There's really no other options, but you certainly have the free-will necessary to chose within these "specific parameters" which ultimate destiny you will partake in -- unless, of course, someone picks you up and throws you into the pit (but that's another issue entirely ).Consequently, if one is blind and deaf, then they cannot be fully blamed for falling into the pit in most cases -- in fact, the workers watching the pit on the other hand might be more prone to blaim in this regard.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-02-2005 05:43 PM

That's not true Faith, at least it's not how I see it.Christ's death on the cross is the divine event that tore open the way to heaven for believers and unbelievers alike. In other words, if Christ didn't die and raise himself from the depths of hades, it wouldn't matter how much faith either one of us had in Christ -- we'd still be damned.To be more simple, the answer to your question is because he is still the savior.As far as I can tell, the early church was mainly concerend with spotting references to Christ in the Hebrew Scriptures in order to demonstrate that Christ was active amongst the Israelites well before his incarnation in the virgin. Many of the early church fathers saw Christ walking in the garden with Adam and Eve, walking with Enoch and Noah, conversing with Abraham, standing in the flames with Daniel's friends, etc.In other words, they were exited about the knowledge of their redeemer finally manifesting among them and revealing himself so clearly to them. Or, stated more plainly: The mystery of all the ages was finally revealed.In this regard, this doesn't necessarilly imply that no one was "saved" prior to Christ's death and resurrection. Christ's sacrifice on the cross stretches throughout the entire scope of human history.More to the point, it seems more reasonable for some to equate the coming of Christ with the epiphany (or the revelation) of their salvation. In other words, Christ's coming was the manifestation of the revelation of the Savior who had been saving whichever people were saved everywhere all along since the beginning.Now with this revelation we as Christians hear the call of the Holy Spirit to share this revelation with all who are willing to listen.Others do not know who their redeemer is. We do -- and that's why we must take very careful Spirit lead precautions before speaking to one who soundly doubts. If we push them away from Christ, that's our fault -- not theirs.Stating this more clearly, I think that one can easilly proclaim Christ as savior without simultaniously condemning those who do not know him to hell. In some regards I weep for the church in our modern day. In many ways we've become just as guilty of the "self-righteousnes" that our Christian Scriptures rail against the Jewish people of Jesus' time. This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-09-2005 12:01 AM

Wow, that was clever.You seemed to have forgetten to read on further... Consequently, this quote comes from Psalm 19:4.The whole passage goes as this: Or, in other words, how is the word of God heard according to Paul?Edit to clarify... By the way Faith, this was an exact passage I had used before to indicate that all people can hear the word of God even if they don't know who Jesus is. Consequently, Paul is using it here in Romans in the exact same context that I've used it too -- and it's used in the same exact context as pertaining to salvation. It seems to me that this assertion above is incorrect too. The Scriptures are actually contradicting you here as well in the exact same Romans passage: How so? I've never denied that Jesus was the savior. I've alos explained why I felt that Jesus was the savior -- because he "literally" oppenned the door to heaven. I've only denied your version of what it means for Christ to be the savior. Yeah...and so are you. This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-09-2005 01:27 AMThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-09-2005 02:01 AM

Wow, Faith, here we go again. Maybe you're misusing the Scripture? No. That's not exactly true either. Like I said before, if Christ hadn't died and been resurrected, all these things would be pointless -- INCLUDING OUR FAITH IN GOD.Furthermore, when he came and preached, in my opinion, he preached the clear message of God without all the overlaying polytheisms and whatever other errors existed. In other words, God came in person and verified the true faith -- the faith which was most likely to allow one into God's presence.I've never said there weren't dangerous practices in other religions. For example, if a culture regularly sacrificed people or children on alters, then they are held accountable for that because they know in their hearts (because God put it in their hearts from the beginning) that killing is wrong. In order for them to engage in this practice, they have to willingly go against the Holy Spirit to do so.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-09-2005 01:51 AM

No, that's not what I've said at all. I've said that many can know the concept of Christ and confess their belief in him by the Holy Spirit moving them to do so. Therefore, if salvation is found in a person, it is because Christ is at work in them and saving them. And again, you're not understanding what I've said. I'm saying that if salvation is found in them, it is because they do know Christ -- even though they do not know his name. Yes. And I've never said it wasn't adamant about this. I never said they couldn't be saved without knowing the gospel. I've said that they can know the gospel, however dimly, from other sources outside the Christian faith.As far as preaching is concerned, God calls us to do it because there is a very real danger in other faiths and worldly systems of falling away to the point that they no longer know God anymore -- to the point that their consciences are simply dead to God's call. Those that uphold the gospel are effectively immune to this falling away so long as they are attentive to the Holy Spirit -- but, even then, there are exceptions to the rule if they persistently ignore the Holy Spirit. Because it is the truth Faith. God wants us to know his son in whom he is pleased. Jesus is the perfect way to the father -- he is true God and true man -- and there is no other way to the Father except by Christ.Besides that, I've always upheld that it was one's belief in Christ that reveals Christ's manifestation of salvation in their lives -- even if they don't know Christ by name. Yes. And the value of his life and resurrection is the ultimate source of our salvation. I accept that you don't agree with my point of view.However, I don't understand why you have to distort what I've said so as to make it look like I'm saying that Christ's death and return from the dead is irrelevent to my theology.Everything I've said points toward Christ's redeeming us on the cross -- and that there is no other way for humanity to gain access to the father except by this. More sweeping statements eh?Gee -- this sounds like something coming out of the mouth of a first grade child, "I'm right and you're wrong...nah nah nah!". I'm not going to sit here and go back and forth with you saying, "I'm right and your wrong" 20 times over and over again because it accomplishes nothing. I've already agreed to disagree with you Faith. It's your insistence that you've somehow "won the debate" which cause the Spirit to flare up in me and prompts me to respond further to your responses.See, I don't claim to have won anything. All's that I've presented is an what I believe to be a very valid alternative to your interpretation -- and to this extent I believe I've succeeded in doing so.However, your response is usually something like, "I'm right...and everyone else who disagrees with me is wrong." I don't claim to be the absolute source of truth like you do. I've only responded as I felt the Spirit led me to do so. Whether I'm right or wrong -- ultimately -- Christ will be the judge. Not you.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-09-2005 02:25 PM

First of all, as I've said before, the Scriptures do indicate that all people know the word of God even if they do not acknowledge it (or know that Christ is the source).You quoted the following passage of Scripture as the proof text of your assertion: However, in quoting this text, you completely omitted what Paul says further on. Paul explains this in detail as follows: Let's review what is being said here.Paul says, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ."Then Paul asks, "Did they not hear?"To this Paul then asserts that they did hear the message through the word of Christ.And how does Paul say that they heard the message through the word of Christ?Paul quotes Psalm 19:4 as a proof text as follows, "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."In other words, the word of Christ has gone out into all the earth, the words of Christ to the ends of the world -- so there is no excuse for not believing in God just as Paul said before in Romans 1:20 Going back to the entire text of Psalm 19:1-4 (which also follows this exact same reasoning) one can reasonably say that Paul has concluded that: I've already addressed this passage before and all you said was that I've misunderstood it, or interpretted it improperly, or was perhaps spiritually deluded, or maybe even suffering from demonic possession (as you've alluded before to others who do not agree with you).Furthermore, the Scriptures do indicate that those that do not know Christ "by name" nonetheless still believe in him by their actions: You've never actually addressed this passage except to say that these people who are considered righteous will "earn" a less hot place in hell.~ yay ~Faith, all that I'm saying is that Christ knows them -- and that this is more important than us knowing Christ. No. Salvation would be given to anyone that the Spirit revealed would have believed if the message had been properly given to them. Consequently, when we see people expressing remorse for doing something that God calls "sin" -- even though they apparently don't know God -- many are compelled to think that these kinds of people would have been open to the message of salvation if it had been fairly presented to them.In particular, I beleive that Christ, who is by the Scriptures own admission omnipotent in his glorified state, could examine the hearts and minds of any person to see how they "would have acted" if the situation were different.I personally do not beleive this to be a vague statement which bears no resemblance to the various Judeo-Christian schools of thought. For example, the Scriptures themselves seem to disply a very similar message as follows in Hebrews 4:12-14: The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. As such, it seems to me that God could easily observe the multitude of different possibilities that lay before each individual human being and make it as if were something that actually happened and we could be held accountable for.Or, as the Scriptures again say in Romans 4:17: In this sense, it seems to me that God is capable of determining the faith that one would have had "as though they were" placed in the right cicumstances.Consequently, when we look around the world, we do see glimpses of the gospel message everywhere -- even in nature whenever animals engage in traits of self-sacrifice in order to continue their own species. I know what you mean Faith -- and I don't agree with it. But I've never said that you're wrong though -- I simply pointed out contradictions in your thinking and suggested that "I think" you are wrong in regards to some of your conclusions. This is to say, I've always held that what you're suggesting is one possible meaning of it, one that might actuially be true.But you seem to be incapable of even thinking that you could even possibly be wrong -- and quite comfortable in comdemning others in the process of asserting your own views. That's not true. And I've already explained why this wasn't true. By my standards Christ is the Savior and our knowledge of him when lovingly moved by the Spirit is a guarantee to salvation.Others, however, know what the truth is but do not realize where the truth comes from. As they grope about in the darkness, they can easilly get discouraged by their inability to find the source of their truth. They can become led astray by seducing spirits because they have no sure word of the Scriptures to compare the truth of God's record. I've never denied that the Scriptures are the most sure word of God's revelation to man. Does this sound unfair to you?I tend to think that when a Christian is authentically called by God, they are called in such a way that their refusal to comply is damnable in the eyes of God.In other words, we Christians are going to be judged more strictly than those who do not know God.Consequently, there are passages of Scripture which seem to indicate this exact thing -- that those who know better will be judged more strictly: That's total bs Faith.A believer in Christ knows who their redeemer is. We know where we are going after our death. We know that God loves us. We are able to share this love to others and pull them from the darkness.An atheist knows there is material. They don't know, however, where they are going after they're death -- many seem to think that we cease to exist. They know what love is just like us, but they don't know where the love comes from. They are able to share love to others (and maybe even pull them from the darkness) but they can never be truly sure if their actions are anything more than a purely naturalistic process.This is surely a recipe for falling away from God don't you think? Well...I'll let jar defend himself. He seems to be doing a good job of this on his own in my opinion. That doesn't mean that I think jar is a genius just because he agrees with me -- although I do deeply respect the effort that he's gone to explain his position and can identify with many points he's made. I don't consider myself particularly smart anayway (and I'm certainly not a genius by any stretch), and I'm sure there's many areas where we disagree in some theological circles. Or, maybe you're starting to realize that I've been pointing to an extremely valid alternative to your theological views. I've never said that either Faith. I've always maintained that God judges in proportion that which is revealed to each individual. I kind of agree with jar when he says that Christians have a higher bar for entry into heaven than others do.Just as a baby could not be held accountable for their actions until they came to an age where they could understand instructions given to them, people who have never heard the fullness of the word of God as carefully described in the Christian Scriptures could not be fairly held accountable until such a time as the fullness of the revelation were carefully and lovingly explained to them by Christians. Because we've been called by God to do so. Because it's the truth.It's the same point as it's always been, to lead people to repentance in Christ -- because people are not saved without hearing the gospel. While I maintain that the word of Christ can be perceived in many areas of nature and religions outside the Christian Scriptures, we as Christians have the fullness of truth -- so there is no excuse for us to not preach Christ's word.In other words, just as at the most basic theistic level there is enough evidence in nature to prove God exists, at the most basic Christian level there is enough evidence in Scriptures to prove that Christ is God -- and the Spirit leads us to preach this truth to all who are willing to listen. What are you not understanding here?Just because one can be saved without knowledge of Christ directly from the Christian Scriptures, this doesn't mean that ALL PEOPLE who have not heard the Christian Scriptures are going to heaven.I'm not talking about universal salvation Faith. I do believe that many people who do not believe in Christ (by your definition) will still sadly be going to hell. My point is that Christ is capable of saving those that do not know he is the savior even though they acknowledge him by their actions. By leading them to Christ. How else do you think it does it? Yes and no.To quote Spider-Man's uncle, "With great power comes great responsibility." I've already aluded to the fact that the Scriptures say that we Christians will be judged more strictly than others. In this sense, we are to always be one guard and watching out for things.I think that the true knowledge of God is perhaps the most potentially dangerous and volatile power ever brought forth by him. When placed in the wrong hands, the knowledge of God can result in the most terrible calamities ever imagined.I know that others will laugh at me, but I do believe that there will be a literal anti-chirst walking the face of the earth some day. In this regard, I think he will probably claim to be a Christian of some sort -- and will highly abuse his God-given authority. Like the adversary, Balaam, and Judas Iscariot, he will probably be one who is very close to God but will rebel against him and do the utmost damage that one can think of in the name of God.All these above points are exanples of disadvantages.I'll adress some of the advantages below. First of all, there are plenty of special advantages to being a Christian.Here's a few that are mentioned in the Scriptures: More importantly, we are permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit as Christians -- so long as we are alive. This is much different from others who are simply buffetted around between the motions of the Holy Spirit and the spirit of the adversary, the flesh and the world. While God can certainly work through someone who does not know him, it is no guarantee that salvation is inherrited by this. God could measure their lives at the end of human history and still save them based on their willingness to be moved by the Spirit, but non-believers are not necessarilly atracted to the motions of the Spirit.I suppose I look at it this way. When certain materials are shocked, they become magnetized and will align themselves to local manetic fields quite easilly. Similarly, when a Christian is baptized they easilly align themselves to the motion of the Holy Spirit.Now, in the case of a non-beleiver, let's say they were not "born again" in Christ. They've never been "magnetizied" by the Holy Spirit so that they can easilly align themselves to God's will. As such, this doesn't mean that they can't align themselves to the pull of the Holy Spirit. If God uses a powerful enough "magnet", they will still be pulled along by God -- they could even be fortunate enough to "aware" to the magnetic field even though they are not attacted to it. But, having said this, they will tend to resist the more natural attraction that God normally employs. In you opinion I will add. Because he is real and he wants to talk to us. He is deeply interested in what we think -- and how we feel.I also think that God cannot see evil when in heaven, so he became both true God and true Man in order to come down and experience everything we do so that he could save us. In other words, Christ came down so that he could sympathize with us and make an appeal for us before the father in heaven. His human nature was able to perceive the "sin" that God "in heaven" was incapable of looking upon -- even though his Godly soul was unable to be overcome by death. Christ was, in effect, tempted in every way, just as we are - and yet was without sin. In dying, he took on our sins on his "human" body and then "sacrificed" himself by experiencing a torturous death so that his "Godly" soul could then overcome death. Because many people do not grasp it Faith. Whether because their senses are dimmed, or because they are simply blind to God's presense, it's too subliminal for some to grasp anymore. So God came in person to make this clear. Do you understand what I'm saying now? In other words, Christ came down so that he could sympathize with us and make an appeal for us before the father in heaven. His human nature was able to perceive the "sin" that God "in heaven" was incapable of looking upon -- even though his Godly soul was unable to be overcome by death. Christ was, in effect, tempted in every way, just as we are - and yet was without sin. In dying, he took on our sins on his "human" body and then "sacrificed" himself by experiencing a torturous death so that his "Godly" soul could then overcome death.The Scriptures further emphasize this as follows: No. You're focussing on the passages that imply that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ are sufficiently damned. You're the one claiming that God only listens to you and Christians that think like you. Who has the issues with their ego Faith? No. I say that you might be right. But that I think you are wrong.You say that no one but you (and people who agree with you) are right -- period.Don't try to claim that there is no difference between my views and yours Faith. There's a big difference between them.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-09-2005 07:48 PMThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-09-2005 08:00 PM

My apologies again Percy. I realize that my posts are embarrasingly long. I'm just trying to go into serious detail as to why I feel that Faith's position is inaccurate to some extent (And I've included his quotations so there will be no misunderstanding my own position in contrast to his).If I could sum it up in one statement: All that I'm saying is that Christ knows them -- and that this is more important than us knowing Christ.

Thanks GDR. I am a big C.S. Lewis fan. I guess I never realized how much of an influence he may have had on me.Blessings to you and your family. This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 06-11-2005 02:35 PM