EvC Forum: The philosophy behind The Twelve Steps

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Topic: The philosophy behind The Twelve Steps

ringo

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Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 47 of 108 (400351)
05-12-2007 3:18 PM

Reply to: Message 46 by Phat
05-12-2007 9:23 AM

Re: Addictions: a disorder of worship?

Edward Welch writes:

... we are in a battle between the worship of God and the worship of ourselves and our desires.

What is "worship of God"?

We can't do anything "for" God. We probably can't do anything to "impress" God.

Isn't "worship" just doing what He wants us to do? If we love God by loving our neighbours as ourselves, don't we "worship" Him in a similar way?

So, if addictions are a "disorder of worship", or a displacement of our worship from it's proper "target", isn't the proper target our fellow human beings?

It seems contradictory that 12-step programs emphasize help from others, while the "disorder of worship" idea implies help to others.

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	Message 46 by Phat, posted 05-12-2007 9:23 AM		Phat has replied

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	Message 52 by Phat, posted 05-18-2007 4:24 PM	ringo has replied
	Message 63 by Phat, posted 05-23-2007 2:41 AM	ringo has seen this message but not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 707 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 53 of 108 (401197)
05-18-2007 5:06 PM

Reply to: Message 52 by Phat
05-18-2007 4:24 PM

Re: Phats 8 Steps for Recovery

Phat writes:

So what do you think of my secularized step program? How would you improve it? What did I leave out?

Here's my version:

Examine what you've done and what you're doing that harms yourself or other people. Try to fix your past screw-ups and try not to screw up the same way in the future.

I originally had two steps, but I asked myself, "Why does it have to be stepwise?"

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This message is a reply to:
	Message 52 by Phat, posted 05-18-2007 4:24 PM		Phat has replied

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ringo

Member (Idle past 707 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 56 of 108 (401353)
05-19-2007 11:33 AM

Reply to: Message 54 by Phat
05-19-2007 8:33 AM

Phat writes:

... the steps are important because there is usually a definite sequence to learning about oneself and being empowered to change.

The problem I have with the stepwise approach is that it can give the (false) sense of being "finished". Like the scientific method, things have to be done in a certain order, but it should be understood that it is a cycle, not a single process.

If it was all as easy as self realization, people would be fixing their own problems.

Of course. A lot of people do.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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	Message 54 by Phat, posted 05-19-2007 8:33 AM		Phat has replied

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	Message 58 by Phat, posted 05-20-2007 4:15 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 707 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 59 of 108 (401555)
05-20-2007 5:15 PM

Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
05-20-2007 4:15 PM

Re: Watch Your Step

Phat writes:

Thats why Step 10 is so important. We continue to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

Interesting that "admitted we were wrong" is in the past tense.

For me, at least----the 12 steps brought me out of a wormhole of past feelings/present behavior and gave me a new set of references between how I used to deal with things versus how I now choose to deal with things.

Again, that sounds more like a "new beginning", a one-time "conversion" instead of an on-going process.

The 12 step group is but one possible solution for dealing with the past....

While examining the past has its value, shouldn't dealing with addictions emphasize the present and the future? Do you really need to know "why" you drink, gamble, etc.? Isn't it more important to recognize the effects of your behaviour in the present?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
	Message 58 by Phat, posted 05-20-2007 4:15 PM		Phat has replied

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ringo

Member (Idle past 707 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

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Message 108 of 108 (814017)
07-03-2017 12:27 PM

Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
07-02-2017 5:42 PM

Re: Day 350 and quite an ongoing journey

Phat writes:

If I shoot myself in the foot, I cannot very well blame the gun!

But HAVING a gun would be the equivalent of having a roulette wheel on your kitchen table. And handling the gun in such a way as to shoot yourself would be equivalent to spinning the wheel.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 105 by Phat, posted 07-02-2017 5:42 PM		Phat has seen this message but not replied

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