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Author Topic:   The philosophy behind The Twelve Steps
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3447 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 74 of 108 (474174)
07-06-2008 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Granny Magda
07-05-2008 10:33 PM


Re: UPDATE
I was wondering; are you any happier about the "surrender" and "powerlessness" aspects than you were when you made the previous post? I have to say that I agree with what Crashfrog had to say on the matter. Telling an addict of any stripe that they are powerless seems to me like the worst advice imaginable, the polar opposite of what they need to hear. That's my biggest objection to twelve step.
I have to say that I agree as well. If one accepts that they are powerless and then find that they are alone (after a crisis of faith or a loss of the support group) then what?
However, it seems to go with a certain pattern of conversion into Christian faith. Accept that you are essentially worthless and evil/sinful and let God take over and all will be OK.
You probably have made the connection but you separated that point from this one
Granny Magda writes:
Attempting to proselytise amongst such people seems like getting them whilst they're down, a bit of a dirty tactic in my view. What do you think?
It is a dirty tactic. This is pure anecdotal evidence, but I have never met a born-again Christian (including close relatives) who didn't become so after being completely depressed, guilt-ridden or addicted to something or other. Not a single born-again I know became so because they were happy, content and/or optimistic about life and wanted to celebrate it by being "born again."
Essentially, it is a breaking down of self beyond whatever has you down. By admitting you have no control, you relinquish control but what happens when you relapse? It is all your own sinful fault again. Not the God you just relinquished control to.
It's always a fight, always a struggle and you hate yourself for giving in and God wants you to be good, but you give in and, with free will and all, it is really all up to you anyway. So why God? If this God can't really help you and it is really your own self-control that gets you through then why deal with all of the ritual and/or the extra helping of Bible-based self-loathing?
Of course, if you do stay sober then it can be attributed to God. It's all God's doing if you do well. Praise be!

"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London
"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

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 Message 73 by Granny Magda, posted 07-05-2008 10:33 PM Granny Magda has not replied

  
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