The philosophy behind The Twelve Steps

In the case of AA, the point of the game is not to aid recovery but to maintain a big church of life-long AA members. I see it as a nice case of natural selection operating on culture. If your addiction cult is able to cure people and let them leave the group, then you will never be as successful (numerically) as an addiction cult which makes life-long members.Consider what would happen to Catholicism if you only had to go to Church once, at the very end of your life, and simply carry out a full confession. That's no good! So they have to invent a load of bullshit (different celebrations throughout the year, different Saint's days, etc) to keep you an active member your whole life.You get exactly the same in the AA - you have to accept your complete powerlessness and the fact that you will ALWAYS be an alcoholic, as the very first step in the process. And they will wheel out poor old members of fifty-years standing, who have attended AA meetings twice a week for decades, to show what you should be aiming for.Mick

Not having been a member or known a member, is there a profit scheme here?Do people pay to be members? Do they ask for donations? Do the founders sell books?Or is this just a created culture overwhich I extend some power sort of thing

I doubt they make a financial profit - they sell books but at a relatively cheap price (15 dollars for their bible, "the big book", which is hardback and has about 350 pages).I don't think AA has much of a "purpose" other than replicating itself (just like me!)

The main alternative I am aware of to the faith-based 12-step approach is Rational Recovery, which is described on Wikipedia at Rational Recovery - Wikipedia.In your OP, you refer to 12-step being used by secular programs. Could you please point out some of those secular programs?

You can get sentenced to AA, right? Like, for DUI's n'stuff.I'll assume you can. Okalie-dokalie.

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1.) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable.

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I have a problem with this one already. Must you be powerless over alcohol to be an addict? Can't you be addicted to alcohol but not be powerless over it?

Addiction is addiction when a person is powerless to stop it. I suppose that a Nicotine addict is not powerless in the sense that they could quit smoking...but who really wants to?Addiction is not caused when a person feels powerless, but the bottom line is that many addictions are caused when a person consciously chooses to be addicted. Well, the whole reason for even going to such a program is the idea that you have a problem. Until you face that fact, you may as well not even be there. If the addict has admitted that they are, in fact addicted...and they cannot fix themselves then a support group is a viable next step. If you can stop drinking, gambling, playing video games, or spending five hours a day on the computer by yourself then more power to you! Maybe we can start an EvC addiction support group! (Oh wait, we would have to meet here which would then mean we were feeding our addiction which would then mean....oh never mind!) It is an individual choice to attend a support group, to begin with. True helplessness is if you were forced to attend such a group. Well..from a Christian view, I would say that it is your own fault for not listening to God. The alcohol is an idol. Smash it and move on! (or whatever the hangup you have is.) In a nutshell, Berberry, the Christian view that I have seen involves an acknowledgment that an addiction, by definition, is itself a substitute for dealing with reality and for most Christians, communion with others is reality as it should be and not yet another addiction. Some could argue that organized religion is an addiction also, I suppose. I wonder if it would be possible to construct a 12 step model for atheists. Any ideas?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Not constitutionally.

If people are powerless to stop, how do you explain all the addicts who stop?I really don't see powerlessness as a useful way to discuss the problem of addiction. There's a reason that drug addiction is a very real problem, but things like "video game addiction" are just made-up excuses to justify expensive treatment at boutique clinics. Drug addiction causes real physical changes in the brain and body. It's a disease.You don't send a cancer patient to "Cancerholics Anonymous", you start treatment with surgeries or chemotherapy. Because they have a problem that isn't just in their head (jokes about brain cancer notwithstanding.) It's the same with drug and alcohol abuse. A system of counseling is required, as well, to deal with the behavioral issues that led to the abuse in the first place, but it's a physical problem too that must be addressed. Talking about "God" doesn't do that. I don't think it would be anything so glib as a bunch of steps, but why don't you look up Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy, as mentioned in my link, and we can discuss it as an alternative to woo?

Yeah, I think its just an option instead of jail or something...I'll have to ask my cousin

IANAL, but my understanding is that you can be given the option of either jail or approved treatments, and one of those treatments can include AA as long as there's a secular alternative; but given only the choice between jail or AA is unconstitutional.So, you're right.

Just a note that may play in one way or the other, there is a book coming out in October "Thank God for Evolution" by Michael Dowd, which specifically uses these tweleve steps in a way that is consistent with a naturalistic worldview (no supernatural, magic, gods, etc). You may be interested in checking it out.Take care-Equinox

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-Equinox_ _ _ ___ _ _ _
You know, it's probably already answered at An Index to Creationist Claims...
(Equinox is a Naturalistic Pagan -  Naturalistic Paganism Home)

It would need to be something very different from the 12-step as it exists. And, contrary to the 12-step as it exists, it would need to be something constructive.Again, what about Rational Recovery? As I recall (from what I had heard of it 1.5 decades ago), it involves realizing that you need to take responsibility for yourself and that you need to work to solve your own problems. Of course you can get advice and guidance and peer support from others, but you are responsible for yourself and nobody's going to do it for you. That is the atheist way. And the fundamental structure of 12-step is contrary to that way.

I think the issue is a level of needing help."We admitted we were powerless over alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable."...is a bit over-dramatic. And can be self-destructive as well. A better re-wording would be something like:"We admited we were unable to discover the strength needed to overcome alcohol--that our lives had become unmanageable"That is, more of an "I don't know how to overcome this problem" admission rather than "I know I'm useless". Not so much that they "cannot" fix themselves, but more so that they don't understand how. That is, they do have the power to help themselves, but just do not know how to tap into that power.
In both cases, a support group is a viable next step. In my suggested case, the person isn't left feeling powerless. This should help any future dependence on others for support and help them understand that they can learn to depend on themselves, eventually.Or, well, at least that's what I think. I'm no psychological or addiction expert by any means. I don't think that's the point, though. Choosing to attend a support group doesn't have to be "to put the power outside of the individual's hands". Why can't a support group help each other to learn how to overcome an addiction through their own power?It would seem to me that if someone learnt they could personally overcome an addiction, then they'ed have an easier time maintaining a healthy distance away from the addiction. Especially when they are alone or away from or possibly even finished the group program. If someone learnt that they can't depend on themselves to stay away from an addiction, it would seem rather trivial that they'll be very likely to become addicted again once they are on their own.It's this beginning basis that's the problem. The philosophy that "you are not good enough to help you, you need others" is long-term destructive. An alternative philosophy that "you do not understand how strong you are, we will help you find your own strength to deal with this problem" seems much healthier.

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We may be powerless over the effects of the addiction (biochemical stimulus and psycho-emotional patterns)

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Of course we have power over those things, Phat.The "psycho-emotional" is just "what we believe about ourselves".We can work to change that, and the change can be dramatic. And it is ONLY the idividual that can change themselves. With knowledge and support, of course, but the individual is the only one with the power to change themselves.I know this from first-hand experience.The "psycho-emotional" is based upon the "biochemical", and (now this is the important part) vice-versa.Here is an example.When I worked at Zingerman's we were required to smile, be cheerful, positive, fun and helpful to our customers. It was part of how "great service" was defined there.Sometimes, I was tired, or troubled or just not in a good mood when I started a shift. Being cheerful and enthusiastic and fun was pure acting on those days.I noticed a fuinny thing happening, though. It turns out that your brain doesn't really know the difference between pretending to be cheerful and positive and fun and actually being cheerful and positive and fun. I usually left work in a much better mood than I began it on the days I was down or moody at the start of my shift.Are there people who have problems with brain chemistry that might benefit from pharmaceutical help? Yes.Likewise, are there lots of people who go through major depressions and recover without any drugs or therapy? Yes.I know, because both Zhimbo and I did it.Both he and I agree that the absolute WORST thing to be told when you are feeling so helpless and impotent and lost is that you really are helpless and impotent and lost.That is because it is wrong thinking.It is just as wrong as a normal weight girl who thinks she is fat.

Maybe the reason people like the "I am powerless over my addiction" thing is because it ultimately translates to "I am not really responsible if I fuck up."