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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
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Author | Topic: WHAT GOD THINKS OF FUNDEMENTALISM | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
In previous topics I have generically defined "fundementalism" to be the bad element in any given good.
Now I will show from the Bible that my definition is correct, but, actually quite soft compared to what God thinks of fundementalism. Obviously, the word itself - "fundementalism" does not appear in the Bible. This means the established religious community of OUR day - the fundementalists, must be identified via interpretation. Fundementalism was a BRANCH of Protestantism, but now it IS Protestantism, as they, the fundemantalists, have completely taken over Protestant Christianity. Protestantism was founded by the reformers on the basis that Protestants PROTEST (as Jesus put it) "the traditions that make void the word of God." Reformation Protestantism PROTESTED the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church that voided out the Constituition of christianity - the written word of God/Bible. But now the Fundementalists are the established religious community and they have long ago ceased protesting church traditions that make void the word of God. They are the staus quo, the 'old wine' and 'leaven' of the N.T. Protestant christianity, from its inception, believes the canonized 66 books that make up the english Bible IS THE ETERNAL WORD OF GOD.Protestants believe that when the last Apostle died God ceased speaking. Unlike the Catholics, who believe God continues to speak through the Pope and when the Church meets in council, Protestants say God finished speaking when the Canon was settled. This means the written source speaks for God and it is the recognized authority/revelation by which God speaks. When Judas the Betrayer hung himself this left an opening in the ranks of the apostles. In Acts chapter 1, Peter decided to cast lots to see who would replace Judas. They picked a person who history completely ignores. God, in Acts chapter 9 picked Saul of Tarsus who quickly became Paul the Apostle. It is a fact that God used Paul to write two thirds of the N.T.This means that Paul and his message is the God approved message. This means that IF scripture contradicts then whatever Paul says should overrule. Paul, in Galatians 1:11,12 plainly declares that the gospel he preaches came from Jesus Himself and not from any man: But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. Paul founded the church at Galatia, and the letter he wrote to the Galatians was a RESPONSE to the corruption of his Christ ordained message/gospel by the established church at Jerusalem. The church at Jerusalem was pastored by James the epistle writer, the so called relative of Jesus. This church at Jerusalem was made up of Jewish converts. The only thing that needs to be seen is the fact that the church at Jerusalem, led by James, is the ESTABLISHED RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY/CHURCH of Paul's day. Remember Jesus said "by your traditions you make void the word of God". Jesus directed that statement to the established religious community of His day - the Pharisees. Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." "From Judea" means from the church at Jerusalem and this command came from James, that new converts MUST be circumcised or they cannot be saved. Here we have the established religious communtiy, under the color of speaking for God DECLARING that you cannot be saved unless you get your penis cut ! Where did Jesus or Paul say that circumcision was necessary ? They didn't. The point is that the established religious community said an external conformity to Mosaic Law was necessary or you could not be saved. Circumcision REPRESENTS any external adherence to Mosaic Law that the church requires as necessary to be saved. Can anybody tell me how many laws the established religious community of our day - the Fundementalists require christians to conform to or they aint saved ? Every fundementalist denomination has their own set of "circumcision" rules that they say PROVES you are a christian. In Paul's day the church was hot for circumcision or you weren't a truly saved christian, circumcision is not an issue today, but every fundie denomination has their own Mosaic list that they say, the adherence to, proves your conversion. In the topic "What is a True Christian", here is a perfect example of a fundie list of what a true christian is: http://EvC Forum: What is a True Christian? -->EvC Forum: What is a True Christian? This list includes: Inerrancy, attending the Jehovahs Witness church, not participating in war, and even a link to a site that allegedly lists "what God requires of us". Reinhold Niebuhr said this about the Jehovah's Witnesses: "They know their Bible...........................verses" What an insult ! Anyway, what is missing from the link: The Gospel! Not one word of gospel in it. I replied to the link and pointed that out but debater made a bunch of excuses. The point is that the Gospel wasn't in their heart, it wasn't in their list of things necessary to get saved. Whats the gospel ? (please hold on - this post will end in a bang) In the original greek the word is "euangelion" and it means "good news". Prefix "eu"/good; "angel"(s) are messengers from God, thus euangelion/gospel literally means "good message from God". Whats the good message from God ? "get your penis cut ?" "obey Moses law ?" The good news/message from God is that He will accept FAITH (whatever that is) in place of the O.T. way of relating to Him via Mosaic Law. And faith, by defintion, has nothing to do with Mosaic Law. (Romans 3:20,21) All evangelical Protestantism agrees that an act of faith directed at Christ gets you saved. The dispute with the established church begins right here. After conversion, the church at Jerusalem/established religious community/Fundementalists insist that keeping Law maintains your salvation. This is pure heresy. My entire message is lost if you fail to realize that Fundementalism represents the established religious community/church which is perfectly typified in scripture with the church at Jerusalem. Their voiding of God's word comes when they require surface conformity to Moses Law, which has nothing to do with the new way to always relate to God: the way of faith - the gospel. When the gospel is practiced God promises to dwell inside of the believer and change them miraculously all because of faith in Him. Now the church at Jerusalem sent infiltrators to the church at Galatia. These "Judaizers" as they are called totally corrupted the gentile converts at Galatia. Their message from James was that you must be circumcised or you aint saved. Paul responds in Galatians 1:7-9 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to PERVERT the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Paul labels those who corrupt the gospel to be "PERVERTS". In the original greek the word translated specifically means "to place that which is behind - in front" Jesus was the Law Incarnate and God crucified Him. The law is past and it is abrogate, but the church at Jerusalem/Fundementalists place it back in front thus perverting the gospel. Then Paul says that if he or an angel from heaven preaches any other "gospel" let them be accursed or more literally "God damned". Paul the Apostle, who speaks for God, says that anyone who puts the law back in front of the way of faith/gospel is GOD DAMNED/accursed. Fundementalists are always elevatng their version of the Law back in front and negating the gospel/way of faith. The Fundie message is if you really got saved then you will conform to Moses law. The truth is that God will propel the convert by changing him via His Spirit IF they continue how they started in their walk with Christ. Paul echoes this sentiment perfectly here: Galatians 3:1,2O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth....This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? This means what it says. That the vehicle of change, the vehicle that saves is the Spirit and that Spirit is received by faith and operates by faith and not by conforming to the works of the law. Fundementalism is that bewitching entity that perverts the gospel by misrepresenting the way a person walks with God. The reputation of fundementalism is to "circumcise"/cut on christians to make them into their image of Moses law. Some fundie churches say long hair is a sin; wearing make-up; dancing; smoking; going to movies; drinking any alcoholic beverage; certain clothes; just an endless list of do' and dont's. Paul says in Galatians 5:2 If you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing This means IF you do any work or law with the intent of gaining or maintaining standing with God - Christ will profit you nothing, and the next verse says you are now obligated to keep the whole law The only activity going on in fundementalist churches is their version of circumcision/Moses law. This is the perversion of the gospel/way of faith condemned in Galatians 1. The gospel is that you can start, continue, and finish by faith. This becomes perverted when the church at Jerusalem/Fundementalism resurrects the Law and demands compliance with whatever silly pet law that they exalt back in front of the gospel. WHAT DOES GOD THINK OF FUNDEMENTALISTS ? Paul tells us in Galatians chapter 4 This is Paul's master argument: Abraham had two sons. One by a bondwoman (Hagar/Ishmael) the other by a freewoman (Sarah/Isaac) Verses 24, 25 says this is SYMBOLIC of two covenants: (Old and New) Mt. Sinai/Moses law/O.T which is Hagar/Ishmael and bondage to that O.T. law, which CORRESPONDS to Jerusalem "which now is"/Fundementalism Then verse 26 says Jerusalem "above" is free and likens that freedom to be children of promise, as Isaac was, a product of miracle according to the promise of God. Paul is equating Isaac with the promise of miracle deliverance from the demands of Mt. Sinai law, because Isaac was a miracle birth by promise of God to Abraham. Mt.Sinai/Law/Hagar/Jerusalem now/Fundementalism vs. Jerusalem Above/Isaac/miracle promise/gospel. Galatians 4:30Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." Paul is quoting Genesis 21:10. Ishmael persecuted Isaac says Genesis. Paul, speaking for God, interprets this to mean that the circumcision crowd of Jerusalem/Fundementalists do the exact same thing to the true christians who walk exclusively by faith/the gospel. God told Abraham to cast out the bondwoman and her son that Ishmael shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman/Isaac. Paul quotes Genesis 21:10 and applies it to the church at Jerusalem/Fundementalists and says "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON" Dr. Scott says it in plain english: "Throw the mother fuckers out" Thats what God thinks of fundementalists. Do not try to save them. Do not love them - throw them out ! This is why Dr. Scott says EVERYONE is welcome in his church except "God damn fundementalists" Edit: Message 12 in this topic is now officially added to this OP. Here is the content that I feel is pertinent to know: Concerning whether the Bible is the word of God or not: This is the claim of the Canon (OP) and we Protestants (Fundie and non fundie) bow to this claim. This topic is not about the claim of the Bible whether it is God's word or not. I dedicated much of the OP in establishing this fact but only to show non Protestants that we (fundie and non fundie Protestants) BOTH accept the Bible to be the word of God so I can proceed to demonstrate to everyone FROM their own source how it condemns them. This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-10-2004 07:17 PM
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Trixie Member (Idle past 3727 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined: |
All Protestants are fundamentalists? Would you care to back that up, please, because it flies in the face of my personal experience of Protestants.
As for what Dr Scott has to say about fundamentalists, well, I'm not surprised. Who the hell is he to say who is worth saving and who isn't? Is he God?? I know he is in your eyes, but when he comes out with crap like that he shows his true colours. We're getting back to the hatred of any Christians who don't share your particular brand of Christianity. Yes, Christianity is about the Gospels, and the Gospels talk an awful lot about love, love for yourself, love for your enemies, love for your neighbours and most of all, love for God. Oh, and if you feel that "hatred" is too strong a term, maybe you coud suggest a reason why he uses such a nasty name for them? Do you use that to talk to your friends? Is that a term you use when praying to God? Right, I'm off to recover from my op that I've just had, so might not be able to reply very quickly. Also if I don't make sense, it's the painkillers.
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
quote: Where did I say that ? I am a Protestant and I am not a fundementalist. You are suddenly defending the fundies only because you hate Dr. Scott/me. What hypocrisy !
quote: Dr. Scott didn't say fundies are not worth saving - God through Paul did. Dr. Scott pointed out what Paul said and agreed with Paul. They are to be kicked out of the chruch because they VOID the gospel which is the very thing Christ's death accomplished. If you disagree then you disagree with Paul who was chosen by Jesus. God hates the fundies thats why He said to kick them out. Thats why He said in Galatians 1 that they are God damned. God said it Trixie whether you recognize it or not.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
WILLOWTREE writes: Fundementalism was a BRANCH of Protestantism, but now it IS Protestantism, as they, the fundemantalists, have completely taken over Protestant Christianity. Like Trixie, I believe you and Dr. Scott go way too far on this. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
Then how much of Protestantism do you think is comprised of the fundies ?
The OP defines fundementalism as any established church entity that requires any external conformity to Mosaic law as proof of conversion. This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-10-2004 05:09 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The point has nothing to do with whether or not they are Protestant. And the points you are bringing up are little different than the attitude of the Fundamentalists themselves.
It really doesn't matter what you or I think GOD thinks about Fundamentalism any more than it matters what GOD thinks of your relationship or my relationship. Religion is very personal between GOD and Worshiper. Until and unless, the Worshiper tries to force their belief system on others, it is strictly between God and Man. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Trixie Member (Idle past 3727 days) Posts: 1011 From: Edinburgh Joined: |
I'm not defending fundamentalism in any way, shape or form. I'm questioning one of your opening remarks as I feel you have overstated your case. I'm asking you to back this up. I don't hate you, I don't hate Dr Scott, I don't hate anyone, to be quite honest and I'm very surprised that you think that God "hates". I'm not guilty of hypocrisy just because I asked you to justify your statement on Protestantism. By the way, Paul said it, not God. That is a fact. He may have been inspired by God and then again he may not have.
I personally choose to believe in the God of love, the one who so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life. I get this weird idea from the very same New Testament that you get your hate from. I get it from the Gospels which claim to report the life, works and words of Jesus, I get it from the teachings of Jesus, about loving your enemy, about loving your neighbour. I don't feel that I have the right or the moral authority from God to say what God thinks of people or their beliefs - I am not perfect like God is. I wouldn't dare presume to know His mind or his feelings outwith the teachings of Jesus. Willowtree, I don't hate you, far from it, but I can't understand how someone who is so strong in their Christian faith can find so much hate in the New testament.
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
I have a source for this topic and I made my case.
You OTOH, clearly say "I think" which makes your source at this point yourself. It DOES MATTER because the gospel is at stake. You are militantly anti - fundie in every other topic up until this point but now are willing to let them off the hook while invoking this "different strokes for different folks nonsense". Once again, show me from the Bible how I am wrong. Refute me line for line, verse for verse or please remain quiet. Go ahead and defend the fundies, but remember the Bible/Galatians speaks for God. My topic is aimed at the fundies who recognize the Bible is the eternal word of God. Unless you recognize the Bible as such anything you say is basically a non sequitor.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
No, the Bible does NOT speak for GOD. And that is the same problem that I have with Literalists, Creationists and Fundamentalists.
The Bible Does Not Speak For GOD. God speaks for God. And he speaks straight to the individual. The Map is Not the Territory. The Treasure Map is not the Treasure. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
quote: The above verse from the N.T. is quoting God in Genesis. God hated Esau. This verse is quoted to make the point that God hates eveyone else who does what Esau did. You initiated John 3:16; why don't you offer a harmony of these two verses ?
quote: quote: Its not wrong to hate as long as you hate what God hates. The God of love that you invoked is angry when His love/the gospel is voided by the traditions of the established church world. My topic clearly identifies the perps and God's thoughts about them. All you can do is offer politically correct nonsense that has nothing to do with theology.If you love the fundies so much then practice what you preach when they oppose you in science topics and social issues. Your sudden defense of them here is so obvious as but really a pretext to launch subjective non Biblical attacks against me and Dr. Scott. Trixie, refute the OP from the Bible or you have not a leg to stand on.
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
quote: This is the claim of the Canon (OP) and we Protestants (Fundie and non fundie) bow to this claim. This topic is not about the claim of the Bible whether it is God's word or not. I dedicated much of the OP in establishing this fact but only to show non Protestants that we (fundie and non fundie Protestants) BOTH accept the Bible to be the word of God so I can proceed to demonstrate to everyone FROM their own source how it condemns them. Jar, I do not want to debate whether the Bible is the word of God or not - do you now understand why ?
quote: BTW, what is the source for this belief ? thanks, WT
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
BTW, what is the source for this belief ? He told me. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Cold Foreign Object  Suspended Member (Idle past 3069 days) Posts: 3417 Joined: |
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Hangdawg13 Member (Idle past 772 days) Posts: 1189 From: Texas Joined: |
Whoa there... buddy,
Its not wrong to hate as long as you hate what God hates. I "hate" when people use the passage about God loving Jacob and God hating Esau for this dangerous argument. I understand that you understand what you are saying, but many people would use this to justify many evils. I believe it is wrong to believe that God is emotional in the sense of human emotion. Human emotions are unstable, time-bound, and often sinful, but God never changes and never sins. It is impossible for finite beings such as ourselves to completely understand an infinite God. We can only come to approximations of greater and greater accuracy. "Hate" and "love in this passage is an anthropopathism: ascribing human characteristics to God so that we can better understand him. The word perhaps deceivingly translated as hate conveys God's attitude towards Esau. "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing, but the honor of kings to search out a matter." Proverbs 25:2
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