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Author Topic:   WHAT GOD THINKS OF FUNDEMENTALISM
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 137 (115202)
06-14-2004 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Cold Foreign Object
06-14-2004 2:37 PM


First, I want to acknowledge your status on this board as one of the top five creos. I respect and admire your knowledge. The EvC Forum is seeing the best debate on-going in the Exodus topics as you and Brian slug it out.
Before I respond to the above complement, WT, which is it. Is it respect and admiration for this Biblical fundamentalist, 58 years into Biblical fundamentalism, or is this Biblical fundamentalist the "God damned"...... "mother fucker" as the other side of your forked tongue implicates him to be??
I'll await your response to this much before proceeding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-14-2004 2:37 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-14-2004 11:15 PM Buzsaw has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 62 of 137 (115209)
06-14-2004 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Buzsaw
06-14-2004 10:35 PM


quote:
Before I respond to the above complement, WT, which is it. Is it respect and admiration for this Biblical fundamentalist, 58 years into Biblical fundamentalism, or is this Biblical fundamentalist the "God damned"...... "mother fucker" as the other side of your forked tongue implicates him to be??
If the shoe of the OP fits - wear it.
I will not apologize for anything.
Paul in Galatians 1 said if anyone PERVERTS the gospel they are God damned. Paul who speaks for God said it. I clearly connected fundementalism to be this perversion.
I didn't compliment your fundementalism - I complimented your Biblical knowledge.
Its time for you to refute what I said (OP), from scripture, or wear the shoe that condemns your kind.
How else would you interpret Galatians ?
This is rhetorical.
You and your kind are mofos who have completely turned the world off to Jesus. I am with Paul "Cast out the bondwoman and her son".
By the authority of this verse I solemnly hereby excommunicate you from the church of Jesus Christ.
sincerely,
Willowtree
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-14-2004 10:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Buzsaw, posted 06-14-2004 10:35 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 06-15-2004 12:04 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 63 of 137 (115224)
06-14-2004 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by purpledawn
06-14-2004 9:23 AM


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we have believed in Christ as Lord and savior then we are not condemned. End of story. How do I know? God promised us this and he doesn't break his promises.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where does God make this promise in the Bible?
John 3:18 [Jesus said] "Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they don't believe in God's only son."
John 8:24 [Jesus said] "If you don't believe that I am the one, you will die because of your sins."
Mark 16:16 [Jesus said] "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe is condemned."
Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not from yourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."
Ephesians 1:13 "You, too, have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed in him you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is a guarantee of our inheiritance until the redemption of God's own possession, to his praise and glory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by purpledawn, posted 06-14-2004 9:23 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 137 (115229)
06-15-2004 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Cold Foreign Object
06-14-2004 11:15 PM


Paul in Galatians 1 said if anyone PERVERTS the gospel they are God damned. Paul who speaks for God said it. I clearly connected fundementalism to be this perversion.
Paul, in this statement was speaking concerning the Biblical fundamentals, those fundamentals taught in the NT concerning the gospel. One who believes in those literal Biblical fundamentals is by definitation a Biblical fundamentalist. Yet you and your friend Scott implicate any fundamentalist as "God damned".....mother fuckers." I have been in this town for over a year now, describing myself as a Biblical fundamentalist. So I repeat my question before responding to the damnation curse and terrible and hateful insult you are attempting to put upon me and my dear, dear godly deceased mother who also was a long time Biblical fundamentalist.
"WT, which is it. Is it respect and admiration for this Biblical fundamentalist, 58 years into Biblical fundamentalism, or is this Biblical fundamentalist the "God damned"...... "mother fucker" as the other side of your forked tongue implicates him to be??"
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 06-14-2004 11:30 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-14-2004 11:15 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-15-2004 12:55 AM Buzsaw has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 65 of 137 (115237)
06-15-2004 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Buzsaw
06-15-2004 12:04 AM


You need to pull yourself together.
If what I say is error then your hysteria says otherwise.
I never said anything about anyones dear departed Mother.
Stop hiding behind your Mother.
Paul was speaking about the perversion of the gospel by the church at Jerusalem/establihed religious community/which perfectly matches the Fundementalists of today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Buzsaw, posted 06-15-2004 12:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 06-15-2004 1:29 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5591 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 66 of 137 (115240)
06-15-2004 1:04 AM


Willow, If God puts his law in the hearts of the believers, how does that make a fundementalists in error if they see this truth within Gods Words, if the Sword of the Spirit is the Word and the Spirit causes one to see the Spirit of Truth in the Word.
P.S. Paul also said, the law is fullfilled if one loved ones neighbor as thyself, etc... kjv galatians 5:14 I just don't see fundementalists believing they are saved by the law, sorry, but find it interesting one can fullfill the law, but we all have sinned, but agree its cause of the faith of Christ, and Jesus said to Peter that upon this Rock he would build his Church, and the gates of hell wouldn't prevail, etc... In acts Peter stood up for the gentile believers, and reminded the apostles that God made choice among them that by his mouth should the gentiles hear the word of the gospel and believe, and I find it interesting that Peter said not to tempt God to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, so leaning its the burdens laden on believers that's what your concerned about(because were not bound by the law) were saved by grace, like what Peter was concerned with the burdens laden on the disciples, the rock that God used (Simeon Peter) to build his church understood that were saved by grace, etc...kjv Acts 15:8-11 Paul was an apostle to the gentiles, sent by Simeon Peter to the Gentile Church in agreement with God apostleship to be sent to the gentile church, but was not one of the 12 apostles, cause one of the disciples chosen to replace Judas was to of been a witness of the resurrection kjv acts 1:22, though I'm in agreement that Paul was a chosen vessel, etc...Paul said For so hath the Lord commanded "US", saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, thy were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
P.S. It says the Word of the Lord was published kjv acts 13:47-49 it not talking about Pauls epistles, though they too were published by the early church cause of the practice of writing letters one to another, I guess whatever your talking about is not about the Word, or fundemental truths, but the burdens laid upon believers, that Simeon Peter (the Rock God used) to build his church, was warning against, cause were all saved by the grace of God, through Christ, its because of his faith (Jesus faith), that the window of faith has been opened to the gentiles, to which is the reason Paul said what he said in Acts 14:47 and when the gentile heard this window of faith was opened to them they believed and published Gods Word throughout the region, etc...

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 137 (115242)
06-15-2004 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object
06-15-2004 12:55 AM


You need to pull yourself together.
If what I say is error then your hysteria says otherwise.
I never said anything about anyones dear departed Mother.
Oh, so now you're letting my good mother off the hook, implicating that I raped her?? Thanks, but no thanks.
Stop hiding behind your Mother.
How so am I hiding behind my good mother? You and Scott are implicating all Biblical fundamentalist's of modern times to be "God damned......mother fuckers" are you not?
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 06-15-2004 12:33 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-15-2004 12:55 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Buzsaw, posted 06-15-2004 2:18 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 72 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-15-2004 3:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 137 (115255)
06-15-2004 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
06-15-2004 1:29 AM


WT, hittin hay, but in the meantime, until I get an apology or retraction of some of your vindictive un-Biblical and highly un-Christian inflamitory statements the way I deal with curses is to rebuke them in the name of Jesus and I rebuke your curse of excommunication from Jesus and his church in the Name of that same Jesus, my Lord and Saviour and by the words of the apostle who said someplace in the NT, "Neither life nor death, nor angels nor principalities nor powers nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other creature shall be able to separate you from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus." (Going by memory [KJV] so not sure of exact quote, but close.)
Btw, do you happen to be into what other Protestants would call Mormonism?
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 06-15-2004 10:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 06-15-2004 1:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 69 of 137 (115305)
06-15-2004 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by Hangdawg13
06-14-2004 11:46 PM


God Said
You have two from Ephesians, which is a disputed book.
Plus you have John and Mark which are books that have been tampered with.
You have showed me what Jesus said and Paul said, but not what God said.
I don't see a promise made by God.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Hangdawg13, posted 06-14-2004 11:46 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 70 of 137 (115308)
06-15-2004 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Cold Foreign Object
06-13-2004 6:26 PM


quote:
Judging you from your "Terms of the New Covenant" topic; you are against/hostile toward Paul.
Actually I have a problem with your dogmatic presentation of Paul.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-13-2004 6:26 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-15-2004 2:00 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 77 by Buzsaw, posted 06-16-2004 12:00 AM purpledawn has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 71 of 137 (115381)
06-15-2004 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by purpledawn
06-15-2004 8:00 AM


Please do me a favor and expose the dogma.
Thanks,
WT

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2004 8:00 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by purpledawn, posted 06-15-2004 10:58 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 72 of 137 (115406)
06-15-2004 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
06-15-2004 1:29 AM


quote:
How so am I hiding behind my good mother? You and Scott are implicating all Biblical fundamentalist's of modern times to be "God damned......mother fuckers" are you not?
God, in Galatians, via Paul the Apostle is.
Dr. Scott pointed this out and I agree.
A clear precise Biblical interpretation has been made, an interpretation that exposes the Fundementalists with Divine irony and application.
Only a cissy would initiate his dear departed Mother in an anonymous debate forum. The "MOFO/MFer" description is a common modern day expression - a synonym for the directive of Paul to cast out the spiritual perverts who void the gospel. For you to bring up your mommy is a pathetic and disturbing non sequitor.
I have argued position - the heresy message of fundementalism, which is a voiding of the gospel by those who would pervert it by their rendition of Moses. This thing about your dear departed Mother is a STRAW man argument. Your anger strikes me as contrived, a tantrum thrown by a person who has finally got whipped by the truth of scripture and is trying to deflect away from this fact.
I am in your face just like Paul got in Peter's face in Galatians 2.
You fundementalists have lived your whole life bullying everyone with the terror of Moses. Lets see you push me around !
The Apostle Paul, in Galatians 4, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit likens Sinai law to Hagar.
Genesis 16:2 says Sarai barely breathed her approval for Abram to procreate with Hagar, then, immediately in the same verse it says:
"And Abram heeded the voice of Sarai"
That dirty old rat Abram couldn't wait to get in the tent with that young handmaid.
Here we have Abram fornicating in a tent with a young girl. Thats what the inspiration of the Holy Spirit via Paul thinks of Sinai/Moses law ! And you Fundies have the audacity to equate Mosaic law/Abram flupping a young girl to have anything to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ ! There are no "fundementals" (plural) - there is only ONE term of the New Covenant: we relate to Christ and receive His benefits by faith. This is the never ending term until the day we die.
This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 06-15-2004 02:09 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Buzsaw, posted 06-15-2004 1:29 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 78 by Buzsaw, posted 06-16-2004 12:43 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 137 (115415)
06-15-2004 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Cold Foreign Object
06-15-2004 3:00 PM


Paul was most likely a closet homosexual and all of his anti homosexual rantings were simply protective coloration. Me thinks he protests too much.
Unlike Jesus who was a Party Animal, Paul would have been a downer. Peter was always getting asked back for some ribs and a beer. Throw a few more shrimp on the barbie.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-15-2004 3:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

wmscott
Member (Idle past 6247 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 74 of 137 (115483)
06-15-2004 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Cold Foreign Object
06-14-2004 9:50 PM


Dear Willowtree;
quote:
You are a fundementalist and the OP clearly says why. You need to REFUTE from the OP or lick your wounds elsewhere.
The definition of Fundamentalism is: "conservative movement in American Protestantism arising out of the millenarian movement of the 19th century and emphasizing as fundamental to Christianity the literal interpretation and absolute inerrancy of the Scriptures, the imminent and physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Birth, Resurrection, and Atonement." -Britannica The five doctrinal points listed in the definition are what determines whether or not a religion or church is Fundamentalist. Jehovah's Witnesses do not agree with the five basic fundamental points of Fundamentalism and hence are not a Fundamentalist religion. Jehovah's Witnesses are biblical literalists, but not Fundamentalists.
From what I can find in a quick search of my references, Fundamentalists seem to be mainly Baptists and conservative Presbyterian churches. You are using your own definition of the word Fundamentalism and applying it by rules of your own making that have no standing in the real world and hence is of no value.
In your OP you stated.
quote:
Every fundementalist denomination has their own set of "circumcision" rules that they say PROVES you are a christian. In Paul's day the church was hot for circumcision or you weren't a truly saved christian, circumcision is not an issue today, but every fundie denomination has their own Mosaic list that they say, the adherence to, proves your conversion.
Now this is your special definition of the word Fundamentalist and you refer to the issue of circumcision in the early Christian congregation. You apparently have overlooked the out come of that dispute, (Acts 15:28-29) "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!"" So even in the very example you used to try to support your argument, you are wrong. When telling the congregations that circumcision and the Mosaic law were not Christian requirements, they listed several 'necessary things' that were required. This is part of the Law of The Christ which I explained to you in my other post which I will repost at the end this post.
quote:
There is one and only one definition of what a true christian is: GALATIANS 2:20
Paul's point was stated in the next verse. (Galatians 2:21) "for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing." Paul was telling the Galatians salvation is in being a follower of Jesus Christ, not in keeping the old law code that had been fulfilled and ended with Christ's sacrifice. This verse is not a 'definition of what a true christian is' it is only one of requirements spelled out in scripture for Christians. You seem to be arguing a 'once saved, always saved' point which is not what Paul was teaching in Galatians 2:20 as shown by verse 21. I also dealt with the 'always saved' thing in my post below, so no sense in repeating it here. Your support for the always saved view is strange since it is primarily a Fundamentalist type thing I have heard mainly from born again-ers like the Baptists who are of course Fundamentalists.
Earlier post:
Dear Willowtree;
quote:
Moses is in your heart not Jesus. Your message is: Jesus saves but after conversion the way to relate to God/Jesus is via conforming to a code of conduct/law keeping. The gospel wasn't on your heart because no matter what you now claim it takes a back seat to surface conformity to Moses law.
I am not a follower of the law of Moses, the scriptures I cited were all from the NT, not the OT, I wasn't referring to the old law code. Christ ended the law with his sacrificial death, the law of Moses came to an end in eyes of God. (Romans 10:4) "For Christ is the end of the Law," Christians are not under the law of Moses, but are under the law of Christ. (Galatians 6:2) "the law of the Christ." This change is referred to at (Hebrews 7:12) "For since the priesthood is being changed, there comes to be of necessity a change also of the law." But what is the law of the Christ you may ask? The law of Christ is a set of principles that we must live by if we are to please God, but where as the law of Moses was written on stone tables the law of Christ was to be written on our hearts. (Hebrews 10:15-16) "Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: "'This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,' says Jehovah. 'I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,"" This is the "New Covenant" sealed with Christ's blood. We are indeed saved by faith, but if that faith doesn't move us to live by the commands of Jesus Christ, that faith is dead. (James 2:26) "faith without works is dead." If we claim to be a follower of Jesus and yet willingly practice wicked things, we have disowned the faith. (1 Timothy 5:8) "Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith." (Titus 1:16) "They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort." (Matthew 7:16) "By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?" Clearly even if we claim to be Christians, failure to follow the law of the Christ, the commands given to the christian congregation and guiding principles found in the Bible, would show that we are not true Christians. Though we are saved by faith alone, that faith needs to be a living faith that is the controlling factor in our discission making.
I know many people promote "a once saved, always saved" doctrine that once you have accepted Jesus as your personnel savior, you are guaranteed eternal salvation regardless of any future actions. But that doctrine is in complete conflict with scripture. Notice what Jesus himself said on the subject. (Matthew 24:10-13) "Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." So if one failed to remain faithful and zealous, you would not be saved. Paul warned the Corinthian congregation who of course were baptized spirit anointed Christians who had accepted Christ as their personal savior. (1 Corinthians 9:27-10:13) "but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow. . . . Nevertheless, on most of them God did not express his approval, for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, for us not to be persons desiring injurious things, even as they desired them. Neither become idolaters, as some of them did; just as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink, and they got up to have a good time." Neither let us practice fornication, as some of them committed fornication, only to fall, twenty-three thousand [of them] in one day. Neither let us put Jehovah to the test, as some of them put [him] to the test, only to perish by the serpents. Neither be murmurers, just as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer. Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived. Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." Notice that Paul had to "pummel" (figuratively of course) his body to refrain from in engaging in sinful conduct that would result in his being disapproved by Christ which would mean the loss of eternal life. We are only always saved if we remain always faithful, James warned on this point also. (James 1:19-27) "Know this, my beloved brothers. Every man must be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath; for man's wrath does not work out God's righteousness. Hence put away all filthiness and that superfluous thing, badness, and accept with mildness the implanting of the word which is able to save YOUR souls. However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. For if anyone is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself, and off he goes and immediately forgets what sort of man he is. But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], this [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing [it]. If any man seems to himself to be a formal worshiper and yet does not bridle his tongue, but goes on deceiving his own heart, this man's form of worship is futile. The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world." See, we must live by the good standards found in the Bible (the law of Christ) and remain without spot from the sinful world, or we will not have Christ's approval.
Far from teaching once saved always saved, Paul warned Christians not to fall into the habit of willfully practicing sin which would have dire consequences. (Hebrews 10:26-31) "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? For we know him that said: "Vengeance is mine; I will recompense"; and again: "Jehovah will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God." Paul here was not talking about non Christians, he was talking baptized dedicated members of the Christian congregation. Christians who deliberately sin, would be worse off than those who don't accept God or Christ since they can repent, but as Paul stated those who already know the truth would have no sacrifice left since they have trampled on the gift of Christ's sacrifice.
Hope you understand what I have been trying to get across to you, otherwise try asking me specific questions and I will see if I can answer them for you.
Wm. Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-14-2004 9:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-15-2004 7:18 PM wmscott has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 75 of 137 (115524)
06-15-2004 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by wmscott
06-15-2004 5:42 PM


Hi WMscott:
quote:
The definition of Fundamentalism is:
Then you proceed to define fundementalism, which said definition excludes the Jehovah's Witnesses.
The only problem is that I defined fundementalism to be ANY established church entity that requires ANY external conformity to Mosaic law as proof of salvation. This is what the church at Jerusalem did with circumcision. The Jehovah Witnesses do the same with their unique pet list of laws that identify a true christian.
Listen closely: IF you can agree with the following statement without any qualifications or buts attached I will retract my characterization of you as a fundementalist:
Christ and the benefits of His atonement are initially received by an act of faith. To continue to receive Christ and His benefits is dependant upon a continuing act of faith. To finish your journey with Christ depends on an act of faith. To forsake faith jeopardizes salvation and disconnects you from Christ. Any adherence to Mosaic law with the INTENT to gain or maintain standing with Christ is a departure from the gospel/way of faith and is condemned by Paul in Romans, Hebrews, and Galatians.
quote:
Now this is your special definition of the word Fundamentalist
This was your comment as to the way I defined "fundementalism". I carefully connected the fundies to be a perfect match with the church at Jerusalem and their perversion of the gospel exposed by Paul.
THEN you cite the First Church Council decision in Acts 15.
James the epistle writer, Pastor of the church at Jerusalem ruled against Paul and Peter.
You are confusing the decision by James, and its recording in Acts to be God's word/will.
Acts 15:7-11
After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
These verses clearly say Peter was against any decision that required any part of the yoke of the law to be necesary to receive salvation.
Paul's response came in Galatians.
Galatians 2:12
Before certain men came from James
Paul is reporting that Judaizers from James came to the Galatians and poisoned their innocent knowledge of the gospel/way of faith with this circumcision nonsense.
In Acts 15 James lied. He agreed to a Levitical list of law but went on to poison the Galatians with circumcision ALSO.
Paul wrote two thirds of the N.T. and nowhere does he affirm what James said in Acts 15. This means what James said in Acts 15 is not the will of God, as the Galatian letter was written to counter this Mosaic decision by James.
For you to assume NECESSARY THINGS to be the Holy Spirit/God speaking perfectly exposes your perverted mind. The Acts 15 decision by James was recorded by Luke to expose the heresy of James which Galatians does in grand fashion.
Who are you going to believe: Paul or James ?
I'll go with an Apostle who wrote most of the N.T.
James wasn't an apostle, God chose Paul in Acts 9.
Acts 15 means THE TRUE MESSAGE OF THE TRUE CHURCH EXISTS OUTSIDE OF THE ESTABLISHED CHURCH. Same as today. The true church, who adheres to Paul, is not the established church, but on the "outside" of what is considered the established church.
The purpose of Acts 15: 1 is to expose heresy - not to record "christian law".
The purpose of Acts 15 and the decision of James is not for reception as God's will, but to expose heresy.
What place does Levitical law have in gospel christianity ?
How absolutely perverted of you to think everything in scripture is for adherence. The Book of James is in the Bible to contrast his crooked and perverse message of works with the straight God ordained message of Paul - grace by faith and faith alone.
The gospel is HOW you obtain Jesus and that way of obtaining Christ has nothing to do with Levitical law spewed out of the mouth of James in Acts 15. The New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant - this is whatt you fundies cannot understand. Faith gets the miracle power of the Spirit to change us Divinely, and discipline willpower upon Mosaic law is a disconnection from the gospel/way of faith.
quote:
Paul's point was stated in the next verse. (Galatians 2:21) "for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing."
You state this verse THEN you backtrack by saying this:
quote:
This verse is not a 'definition of what a true christian is' it is only one of requirements spelled out in scripture for Christians.
When Paul said if righteousness came by Moses law - then Christ died in vain - this means if you do any lawkeeping with the intent to gain or maintain salvation you are deceived and under the curse of the law.
You go on to contradict this statement of Paul when you categorize it as a "requirement among other requirements".
Then you accuse me of embracing "once saved always saved".
"once saved always saved" is heresy.
We are only guaranteed salvation if we continue how we started (faith) Hebrews 3:14.
Faith is a verb and not a noun. Faith is not right belief in creed, but acting in faith upon promises of God. When this is the focus of ones life (the life of faith/gospel) God places the doer in grace and all of Moses law is abrogate to him.
WMscott:
This is a long post - so was yours. Lets keep them short from now on and debate specifics, more will be accomplished - ok ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by wmscott, posted 06-15-2004 5:42 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by wmscott, posted 06-16-2004 4:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

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