Rejection of the Charasmatics and Biblical Literalism

I think the Bible suggests an old earth, but it's not conclusive, and a young earth could be correct. I don't think the Bible is sufficiently detailed on the age of the earth to say one way or another conclusively.

Not sure if I understand.....Some people experience a touch of God in one way and you seem to discount it? Or not?I think this is an important question. What I am trying to get at is the standard you use for determining if an experience is God or not?Is it the Bible?Is it your social sensitivity?Is it your sense of morality?I think this is an important issue because if you say the Bible is not reliable, then what guide do you use to gauge spiritual phenomenon? You seem to think some things, maybe tongues?, are not of God, and so you have to have some standard in your mind.By the way, I have noticed as well that there are errors and abuses within Pentecostalism. No one should feel compelled to fake experiences to feel they are real Christians, but at the same time, this sort of fakery is evidence in almost all social settings of sufficient size, right?Edited by randman, : No reason given.

It is subjective randman. I am not trying to pass judgement on those people.It SEEMED to me that they were obviously faking it. There was also the constant and intense pressure to "open up" so that God could deliver his gift as if it was YOU that was preventing it from happening.It also wasn't just one time or one thing. It was something that was based on years of experience living in that world. To me, I KNOW that a lot, if not most, was fake. That is my person judgement of the situation and no more.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I know people spoke in tongues in the Bible, and have my own subjective experience with God to draw from. I can't say that fakery isn't present either, and think certainly in some circles people feel compelled to fake experiences to be included in the group. But I see that in secular settings as well where people put on airs for whatever reasons.

Even though there may be no "right" interpretation there is such a thing as a wrong one. In the case of speaking in tongues, the claim is that God will make you speak in tonges just like they did at Pentecost.The BIG distinction there is that at Pentecost the speech was intelligible.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Some of it IS the Bible too.From acts: Tongues is always described as being miraculously intelligible to anyone who hears it. The babbling done by most Charasmatics is completely unintelligible.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

The first time I spoke in tongues I had no idea what speaking in tongues was, and was walking down Wrightsville Beach, NC when the moon was rising as or after the sun was setting, and I just felt like singing and sang in a different language, very fluent-sounding to me, and I felt the Lord in a strong way, but even afterwards, didn't know it was speaking or singing in tongues.It's a real thing. Pentecostals just overemphasized it, hence the pressure for everyone to experience it to be accepted. The Pentecostals, of course, were persecuted, sometimes tarred and feathered by others such as Baptists, and over time it seems they got off-course. It's a regrettable pattern in Church history.

When Paul says he will "pray with the spirit", is he referring to praying in front of people to impress them with his gift?No. The Bible doesn't just record tongues as something to be a sign to others.Here is a clue. The Bible speaks of the gift of faith, as if only some have it, but all have a gift of faith if they are believers. The gifts are just extraordinary giftings for everyday things in the believers lives.

Sure randman. I am happy that you had that experience. I am also in no position to judge that experience as real or not. Only you are.As I also mentioned before. I DID see some things that I was convinced was not fake. I don't think I EVER heard anyone actually speak in tongues though because I never understood any of it.

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Where specifically does it say in the Bible that tongues is anything but intelligible speech?The WHOLE POINT about tongues is that it was a miracle because everybody could understand. Without that, why would it impress anyone per your statment? If a guy was standing on a wall babbling nonsensically, I would think he is crazy not that he was delivering a sign or "praying with the spirit".

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Exactly, Paul says that if someone unlearned in these things comes in and sees everyone speaking in tongues, he would say they are mad. Now, if tongues was always understandable to the minds of the hearers, why would he say that?There is praying in tongues which is not a gift of the Spirit per se anymore than faith is a gift of the Spirit, and there is the faith which is given to every man, and there is the gift of the Spirit called the gift of faith. I don't know if you see the difference, but this is technical language by Paul to describe certain operations in the spiritual arena.The gift of tongues is meant for the hearers and comes with the interpretation. Praying and worshipping on tongues is for the edification of the person doing the praying and worshipping. Gp back and read Corinthians with that perspective in mind and see if it doesn't fit exactly what Paul was saying.

Lbh ner evtug.Bar bs gur vzcbegnag guvatf gung jnf pyrne sebz gur Ovoyr jnf gung fcrnxvat va gbathrf jnf abg gb or havagryyvtnoyr, ohg engure n havirefny genafyngbe.Gur vffhrf jnf abg fb zhpu gung gur fcrnxre jnf fcrnxvat va gbathrf nf gung jubrire urneq gur fcrnxre haqrefgbbq gur zrffntr ertneqyrff bs gur yvfgraref angvir ynathntr.Now the above will be easily understood by many, but it is not an example of what was described as speaking in tongues. Although the above is certainly not gibberish, it would only be understood by a subset of the audience reading this thread. As I said, "Gehr fcrnxvat va gbathrf jbhyq or haqrefgbbq ol 100% bs gur nhqvrapr ertneqyrff bs jung ynathntr gurl fcbxr."

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes but that still means that it should be intelligible to some people, those ones who were of the right mind. Can you dig up a book/chapter/verse?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

Is that ROT13 or something?

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Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

I disagree. The Holy Spirit does powerfully affect people, especially in times of revival, but the gifts of healings and tongues and miracles are not even normally part of that kind of experience. I won't say they don't happen at all any more, but to expect them to happen as part of normal Christianity I just don't see. Too too many great Christians, certainly Holy Spirit filled and led, didn't experience anything of the sort. Even the ones with the greatest personal experiences. And there are too too many charlatans who seem to have something supernatural in their ministry but are hucksters and haven't the slightest evidence of conformity to the character of Christ.I agree that scripture doesn't say in so many words that the gifts were only for the times of the apostles, but the fact that they died out just can't be chalked up to an inferiority of faith from that point on. While I know some very dedicated charismatics, I don't know any I'd class with Jonathan Edwards or John Bunyan or most of the Puritans, some of whom had wonderful experiences of the Holy Spirit without the supernatural gifts.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.