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Member (Idle past 3938 days) Posts: 2657 From: A Better America Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Rejection of the Charasmatics and Biblical Literalism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sorry, I keep forgetting which thread I'm in, but I think I mentioned it in this thread too. The example I'm referring to is in the Akiane Kramarik thread. The link is in the first post. Go to the section about her life where she describes her experience of heaven at age four and how that completely changed her life and her family's life.
{Edit: Drat, now I can't find where she talks about that experience. I'll look again later but all I can find now on her "life" page is
quote: http://www.artakiane.com/akiane_life.htm Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Faith, I have read some copies of original source letters and speaking on tongues was definitely part of the Second Great Awakening from 1800 and on, but there was not much teaching on it. Moreover, almost every great revival and move of God in Church history was accompanied and is still accompanied with people speaking in tongues and other, sometimes bizarre manifestations of the Spirit of God.
Evidence of tongues in medieval times is sparse, probably because the Roman Catholic Church was so effective in silencing "heretics." Nevertheless, there are reports of speaking in tongues among the following groups: (1) Waldenses, 1100's, Europe. [192] A group that rejected papal authority and attempted to base their beliefs solely on the Bible. (2) Albigenses, 1100's, Europe. [193] Another group that rejected papal authority and emphasized purity of life. (3) Franciscans and possibly other mendicant orders, 1200's, Europe. [194] Catholic monks who embraced a very simple lifestyle and traveled throughout the countryside preaching. The Reformation Era ForwardReports of speaking in tongues increase greatly after the Protestant Reformation, due to several factors: 1) greater religious freedom, (2) renewed emphasis on Bible study, apostolic doctrine, conversion, and spiritual experiences, (3) the invention of printing, and (4) the closer proximity to our time. According to respected historians, speaking in tongues has occurred among many groups (from 1500 to 1900): (1) Anabaptists, 1500's, Europe. [195] One of the four main branches of the early Protestant movement (along with Lutherans, Reformed, and Anglicans). Unlike other Protestants, the Anabaptists emphasized the restoration of apostolic patterns of worship and lifestyle, the importance of a conversion experience, baptism of believers only, baptism by immersion, total separation of church and state, the power to overcome sin after conversion, and the need to live a holy life. A prominent Anabaptist leader named Menno Simons, whose followers became known as Mennonites, wrote about speaking in tongues as if it were expected evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost. [196] Many early Anabaptists worshiped quite demonstratively; in the words of a secular history text some participated in "very excited, 'enthusiastic,' evangelical practices . what Americans know as 'holy rolling' . The congregation sometimes shouted and danced, and always sang hymns with great fervor." [197] In view of their doctrine and worship, it is not at all surprising that speaking in tongues occurred among early Anabaptists. (2) Prophecy movement, 1500's, England. [198] (3) Camisards, 1600's and 1700's, southern France (often called the Prophets of the Cevennes). [199] A group of Huguenots (French Protestants), mostly peasants, who resisted the attempts of Louis XIV's government to convert them to Roman Catholicism. Many were imprisoned, tortured, and martyred. Observers reported tongues, uneducated peasants and young children prophesying in pure, elegant French, enthusiastic, demonstrative worship, and people "seized by the Spirit." (4) Quakers, 1600's, England. [200] A group that emphasized spiritual experience and waited on the moving of the Spirit in their services. The early Quakers received their name because they literally "quaked" under the power of the Spirit. (5) Jansenists, 1600's and 1700's, France. [201] A Catholic reform movement. (6) Pietists (including Moravians), late 1600's, Germany. [202] The Pietists emphasized spiritual experience and Christian living. (7) Converts of Camisards, early 1700's, England. [203] Some Camisards fled to England to avoid persecution, making converts there. (8) Methodists, 1700's, England, particularly in the revivals of Wesley and Whitefield and in later American revivals. [204] Wesley himself believed that the gifts of the Spirit had practically disappeared but that a fully restored church would have them again. [205] When a certain Dr. Middleton wrote that the gift of tongues was absent from later church history, Wesley replied that (1) many ancient writings are no longer extant, (2) many Christians wrote no books, (3) the ante-Nicene fathers do not say tongues ceased with the apostles, and (4) just because tongues was not specifically recorded does not mean it was not practiced. [206] He said, "Many may have spoken with new tongues, of whom this is not recorded; at least, the records are lost in a course of so many years." [207] In reply to the objection that tongues did not exist in his time, Wesley replied, "It has been heard of more than once, no farther off than the valleys of Dauphiny" [southern France]. [208] We should also note the strong emphasis on repentance and physical demonstrations in the Methodist revivals. One hostile historian wrote, "Extreme emotional disturbances, ecstasies and bodily seizures of various sorts were common in the Wesleyan Revival of the eighteenth century in England," with people in Wesley's meetings exhibiting "violent motor reactions . convulsions and shakings" and screaming. [209] Similar phenomena occurred in the Great Awakening, a period of American revival in the 1700's led by Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, and others. [210] (9) Revivals and Camp Meetings, 1800's, America. It is reported that physical demonstrations occurred in later American revivals, called the Second Awakening, which began with camp meetings in Kentucky and swept across the American frontier. [211] In the camp meetings people "shouted, sobbed, leaped in the air, writhed on the ground, fell like dead men and lay insensible for considerable periods, and engaged in unusual bodily contortions," in addition to manifesting the "holy laugh," the "barks," and the "jerks." [212] Observers at various American revival meetings reported sobbing, shrieking, shouting, spasms, falling, rolling, running, dancing, barking, whole congregations breathing in distress and weeping, and hundreds under conviction and on the ground repenting. [213] These meetings were conducted by Methodists, Baptists, some Presbyterians, and later the Holiness movement. With such a strong emphasis on repentance and free, demonstrative worship, it is not surprising that many people received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. A great revival swept the University of Georgia in 1800-1801, and the students "shouted and talked in unknown tongues." [214] In many cases tongues speaking went unreported because observers did not recognize it or its significance and did not distinguish it from other physical phenomena. One historian said, "Throughout the nineteenth century speaking in unknown tongues occurred occasionally in the revivals and camp meetings that dotted the countryside. Perhaps the phenomenon was considered just another of the many evidences that one had been saved or sanctified." [215] http://ourworld.compuserve.com/...s/pentecostal/New-Ch11.htm
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5935 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Faith
At 4, had a life-changing spiritual transformation, converting the family to Christianity... The inspiration for her art and literature comes from her visions, dreams, And directly below that quote we have this one.
Paints from imagination, reference materials and models. Why would she need reference materials and models when she is divinely inspired and has been to heaven? And imagination is not a unusual quality of four year olds. I agree her talent is extraordinary, {The art not the poetry} but if we base the divine on that which is rare why is that so?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well THAT kind of imagination, a religious imagination in a family of atheists, I think is extremely unusual for a 4 year old. {edit:And especially to be taken seriously as having had a real experience of God by her whole atheist family who didn't take it as mere imagination.} But I guess at this point all we have to go on is opinion.
The training would be necessary in any case to do such realism. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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CK Member (Idle past 4154 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: |
It's more convincing for the mark if the parents were Atheists - it adds an extra layer to the story ("hey we don't believe all this stuff so WHERE could it have come from!")
She seem to be a good revenue generator - might have to get one myself.
quote: Anyone know how much and where?
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
That doesn't mean I "believe" in it. I don't rule out "genuine" speaking-in-tongues completely, but I'm not convinced that any of the instances that I have witnessed were genuine. Nor would I say that all "non-genuine" instances were deliberately faked - I was only replying to a specific comment of Faith's. I can think of lots of other (i.e. better) explanations for what appears to be speaking in tongues. I've only heard a few people speaking in tongues. When I was living in San Diego, I was very much a baby-Christian when I met some claimants. I had just accepted Jesus maybe two months before I met one of my neighbors. This guy and all of his friends from a specific church, which shall remain unnamed, would sit outside his house with arms to the sky, all speaking in tongues. Of course, it was obvious that it was all an act, like those who pray on street corners to be seen by men, rather than by God. Aside from which, they kept weaving back and forth from innane babble to English. It was really quite a sad little spectacle. As far as legitimate tongues, my wife has met quite a few fakers in her day, but she says that she knows of only one person who could truly speak to God in tongues. It was a rather rare function. “If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: It appears to me that many people, theists and atheists alike, simply seek answers to questions, too few seek answers to question. When I first became a Christian, which IMB was tied in with my salvation experience, I was always TOLD what to believe. I KNEW or at least BELIEVED very strongly that my internal reality in regards to communion with God had changed or at least matured, and I felt (and still feel) quite strongly to this day that I had received some sort of an impartation of the Spirit of God, but it was hard to seperate my perceptions from the reality of the situation.
What can I now conclude, if anything, aside from my ever maturing beliefs?
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5935 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
nemesis_juggernaut
As far as legitimate tongues, my wife has met quite a few fakers in her day, but she says that she knows of only one person who could truly speak to God in tongues I really would like you to explain this because,unless your wife is God's secretary, one must wonder how such a conclusion is arrived at.
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
"Could truly speak to God in tongues" might just mean "was an exceptionally skillful faker.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Randmans Source writes: I have no doubt that these reports were as described. The same type of behavior can be seen in many modern groups in our current day. (I was part of such a group!) Revivals and Camp Meetings, 1800's, America. It is reported that physical demonstrations occurred in later American revivals, called the Second Awakening, which began with camp meetings in Kentucky and swept across the American frontier. [211] In the camp meetings people "shouted, sobbed, leaped in the air, writhed on the ground, fell like dead men and lay insensible for considerable periods, and engaged in unusual bodily contortions," in addition to manifesting the "holy laugh," the "barks," and the "jerks." [212] Observers at various American revival meetings reported sobbing, shrieking, shouting, spasms, falling, rolling, running, dancing, barking, whole congregations breathing in distress and weeping, and hundreds under conviction and on the ground repenting. [213]These meetings were conducted by Methodists, Baptists, some Presbyterians, and later the Holiness movement. The social Psychological study of group behavior and reinforcement would explain a lot of this stuff. I have come to at least a couple of conclusions. 1) There is no select group of people that have the Holy Spirit to the exclusion of all others. 2) IF there is in fact a realm of unmeasureable or unverifiable natural behavior in accordance with either the Holy Spirit or the other ones, I conclude that in a mass group behavioral setting we cannot tell which spirit is operating. I am quite certain that God is unimpressed with such human fits of frenzy....it would be similar to watching a five year old engage himself in an inane game of attention seeking theatrics.
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
My Mother and others who were outside the group thought my behavior rather strange and excessive. I must conclude that my own experience sounds very familiar. Everyone outside of believers have a diffcult time understanding why we do what we do. My parents think that 'a little religion does everybody some good, but not all of this worship.' This is why we are outsiders to the world. They just don't get it. And none of it has a whit to do with their intellect on why they don't get it. I was one of them. I couldn't concieve of such a thing. Only my grandmother on my father's side really, really understands. “If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner
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Hyroglyphx Inactive Member |
I really would like you to explain this because,unless your wife is God's secretary, one must wonder how such a conclusion is arrived at. "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from Me you evildoers." -Matthew 7:16-24 “If chance be the father of all flesh then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. And when you hear of, state of emergencies, sniper kills ten, youths go looting, bomb blasts school, it is but the sound of man worshipping his maker” -Steve Turner
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nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
The same type of behavior can be seen in many modern groups in our current day.
And that likely included Jonestown, Guyana, the Heaven's Gate group, and the Branch Davidians.
The social Psychological study of group behavior and reinforcement would explain a lot of this stuff.
Quite right.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
One may well ask why God would find it necessary that we speak to Him in tongues. We were always told that it was because
A) It was a heavenly language. B) The devil and his demons couldnt understand it. I am now skeptical of both of those reasons. God could communicate with us through thoughts alone, should He so desire! Human traditions limit the reality of interaction with the Creator!
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
As far as doing the will of the Father, what do you think that this will is?
Edited by Phat, : change subtopic heading
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