Evangelical Support Group

Just to head the attempt at historical revisionism off at the pass:If I recall correctly the comments (from Faith and myself at least) had to do with our view about you not having a relationship with God to speak of. Which is why you don't speak of it. It was abundantly clear from our many conversations that the relationship you have going is not with God himself but with his Law. In other words: if you try your damndest to keep Gods law then somehow or other you will be on the right side of God come the time when such things are counted. Your most oft referred to text: Matthew 25's sheep n' goats" was always interpreted in this light. "If at first you don't succeed then try, try and try again - and maybe God'll pleased." It means that you speak of what you know. When you don't know it you can't speak of it. This Gospel of Ignorance you refer to is commonly called the Gospel of Grace (as opposed to your Gospel of Works)Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Its a works 'gospel' Phat - whichever way you want to spin it. Universal salvation as a start point but with the possibility of losing it if your works don't stack up - is a works based 'gospel'. No different than a 'gospel' which has you start out unsaved but gain your salvation by works. The emphasis is on YOU in both cases. And what YOU do.You can spin a works gospel anyway you like but it remains a works gospel - whether you have it and can lose it or don't have it and can gain it.

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Inclusivism posits that even though the work of Christ is the only means of salvation, it does not follow that explicit knowledge of Christ is necessary in order for one to be saved. In contrast to pluralism, inclusivism agrees with exclusivism in affirming the particularity of salvation in Jesus Christ. But unlike exclusivism, inclusivism holds that an implicit faith response to general revelation can be salvific.

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I'm not sure that your "in other words" accurately reflects what this article is saying. It seems to me that it is saying only that a person need not explicity know of Christ in order to be saved. And I agree with that. For the way in which a person is saved is given to us: "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness". Abraham didn't know of Christ. Neither need the shepherd up the side of a remote mountain in Tibet know of Christ.I can't see that there is even a need to know that what is believed stems from God. Only that what stems from God is believed. Once that criterium is satisfied, what God says is believed, then a person will have that belief credited to them as righteousness. This is very Roman Catholic notion. Christ opened the doors of heaven so that sinners who were previously excluded might possibly enter (the basic work of salvation). But the door sits at the top of a stairs. It is for us to climb it. Roman Catholicism is a mainline works based Religion. "Effort = Works" - alright. But "Trust = grace"? From whence this notion? I would have thought the issue is otherwise:

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Matthew 7:22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

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The issue is not whether you think you know Christ. But whether Christ is sure he knows you.

I know the elements of your works based 'gospel' already Jar. I was just pointing out what Faith and me actually have said regarding your relationship. Not what you would have it that we said.Its a record-straightening exercise only.

Listen indeed.

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O Lord my God, When I in awesome wonder,
Consider all the worlds Thy Hands have made;
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

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Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

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It's not that God needs worship or flattery but that man needs a way to express his love, thanks and admiration of God to God. What would it be like if we were filled to the brim as the writer of "How Great Thou Art" clearly is...but could not express it. Would we burst? I'm with Brennakimi on this rather simple point, one the good bishop dances around yet clearly misses. .
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. true enough. Designed to... Sounds like he suspects a a conspiracy of wolves in sheeps clothing.The reason why a church might tell 'its' people why they must be born again is that no growing up is possible until that happens. If they tell their people to be born again again - then this would be indeed suspect.Edited by iano, : No reason given.