Would you want to know?

There you go again, jar, a one-man religion unto yourself. I suppose there may be some Anglicans who believe as you do. Spong maybe? But otherwise your religion is simply unheard of.

I'm Catholic and I agree with jar. Heaven is a gift, all you have to do is accept it. Heaven is not a prize that is won. Jesus died for our sins so that we MAY be saved, although sinful. The way out of heaven is through behavior.

Yes, I imagine it may be difficult for him to be supported by the likes of me. I probably shouldn't appreciate him so much. It gets him branded a fundie when he's far from it, and it makes it appear we agree more than we do when in reality we have a lot of disagreements. I get it. Just change the definition of "objective." Make it mean the opposite of what it means. Clever. No, because it IS objective, the part about innocent babies anyway. It's a remnant of the image of God. Only you accuse God of violating it, and that's the illogical and false part.

Being born with Saved on your forehead is not accepting anything. That is for sure. But it must be accepted. ???

I meant subjective.Time for bed, reply tomorrow.Brian.

Basically, to go to hell, you'd have to wipe the 'saved' stamp off your forehead through your behavior. That would be rejecting the gift, I think acception is the default position. Like I just typed, acceptance is there until you fuck it up. Jesus died for our sins so that we can still be saved even if we are sinful and you have to really reject the gift to be out.I just wanted to point out that jar isn't totally alone as you asserted. Continue on with the discussion.

I can hardly believe what you are saying. I guess Vatican II changed the whole history and doctrine of Catholicism beyond recognition. I grew up figuring I was damned according to the Catholics because I wasn't a Catholic. That's what they all said. Now Protestants and Muslims and Hindus are all born saved? Interesting.But you blew it when you said it had to be "accepted." Babies born with Saved on their foreheads aren't accepting anything.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

And Atheists and Agnostics and Buddhists and Taoists and Satanists and Wiccans and Pagans.Heaven will be a wonderous mixture. There may even be a few Christians there.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

So, whatever He does is "good"?I am confused though.
If God does something...it is good.
If I do the same thing...it is evil.
I guess He does not lead us to do good things by example.About the babies...You said here that the ones killed in Jerico were not innocent. However in message 140 you claim that God would not kill innocent children and make a reference to Brian's? condoning of the killing of innocent babies in the womb.
I thought there were no innocent humans? Now they are innocent? If so, Brian is not the only one accusing God of violating the morality. The Bible is making the statement that God ordered the killing of babies. It's just not saying that the killing is a moral wrong. Maybe it is not a moral wrong, for God or those who do His bidding.I guess if God told you to kill a child, you would. I mean, you know your Shepherds voice, right? So, if that Shepherd told you to blow up a mosque or an orphanage, you would.Unless, I am missing something from the Bible that allows you to violate a decree of God.

Weird, I went through 12 years of Catholic schooling and was never taught that, nor do I believe it. Is it possible that you are wrong about the Catholics? One more thing: A Catholic doesn't have to believe every single thing that Catholicism teaches to be considered a Catholic. Why not? Well, I'm not gonna get into babies as that is a long discussion for me and we're already off topic.Sill though, I can see how a saved stamp is something that is NOT accepted and I think that is a fault of the metaphor/model and not the thinking. Maybe something along the lines of the stamp fading off if you don't apply the proper sunscreen or something, I dunno. Do you believe that no babies go to heaven?When/How did you become such a smartass? (the implication of your tone)

No I'm very very sure of what old Catholicism taught and this is all SO different from old Catholicism. I did know that Vatican II made HUGE differences in doctrine though. I'll have to find a website that discusses it. It's the most BASIC Biblical doctrine that we're all born sinners, and Catholics too have traditionally recognized that, as they had all these requirements for being saved, from baptism in the church to regular attendance at church to assiduous avoidance of mortal sin, to faithful confession of sins and I don't know what all else. I am unable to know for sure, scripture doesn't say, so basically I leave it to God, but the idea that makes most sense to me at the moment theologically is that God saves those of His own choosing, which could be many, and that He saves the babies of believers at least, based on the covenant concept. I'm a natural smartass, but I thought I was simply being matter of fact in this discussion myself, no other tone intended.

What a sad and cruel little godlet you describe, a picayune little bling-bling pimp daddy that creates billions so he can choose who gets saved. And you can really say "He saves the babies of believers at least" and not have to hide your face in shame.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

No, it's good without the quote marks. Of course God is good, that is rock bottom theology. If you doubt His goodness there is no faith there at all. This is just the usual illogic based on trusting your own moral sense and refusing to learn God's.It isn't the "same thing" but I've already said this so I suppose saying it again won't prove anything either. God is enacting justice against NONinnocents, and the nearest thing to that on earth is the legally constituted courts of law that sentence the guilty to death. That's the ONLY comparison. God is the perfect Judge and He can make such decisions. Even our courts can't come close of course, but they are the nearest comparison. An individual doing the same act would not have the same motive, the same purity of heart, but would simply be committing murder, doing the sort of judging Jesus said not to do as we are all sinners and we are to bless and pray for other sinners, not condemn them (though the courts certainly may). From GOD's point of view. I DID say that. From OUR point of view ALL human beings are innocent and better be treated so. See above. I admit I may not be saying it clearly enough, but the difference basically is between God's perspective and the human perspective, His perfection and our fallibility to put it mildly. The Bible exists to teach us about God's perfect righteousness, but cheeky humanity dares to judge him instead. Sigh. No. The Bible is my standard. The teachings of Christ are my standard. If I ever heard a voice telling me to kill someone or violate anything I know from the Bible, I would reject it as demonic. You have to know the Bible. That's the standard. All the mistakes, all the violence done in the name of Christ have been done because the Bible has not been held as the standard. The New Testament teaches self-denial and teaches against condemning others. Anything inconsistent with that is not from God.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

So is Catholicism just what the doctrine says or does it include what the Catholics actually believe? Yes, but Jesus died for our sins so we are also born saved, no? There weren't taught, to me at least, to be requirements in the sense that if not fulfilled it would be impossible to go to heaven..:':._.:':._.:':._.:':.WRT the OP:I would definately want to know.

We have, over the last three pages, drifted substantially from the topic. Please get back to it.

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