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Author Topic:   Would you want to know?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 121 of 182 (352843)
09-28-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Brian
09-28-2006 1:24 PM


Re: Even Jesus lied?
We hardly know anything about Jesus' life.
We know all we need to know and it's a lot.
If He was fully human then He lied, simple logic.
Not according to scripture.
How do you know He didn't lie to a friend when He was 7 years old?
Because of what scripture tells me about his nature. He was the new Adam, sinless.
If Jesus was human then He had to have all our faults, if not, how else could He appreciate our position?
He was tempted, scripture says, but he never ever once fell, even in his thoughts. He is human the way those who follow him will some day be, restored to our original nature. I can hardly wait. I'm sick of being a sinner.
As you said in a previous post, it is okay to lie for the cause, so when God lied then techinically speaking Jesus lied too.
If the situation had arisen Jesus would have lied in that sense, but it would not have been sin. Sin would be lying to save yourself. That's the kind of lying we all do. That's sin.
But, we don't know enough about His life to know where exactly He did lie, we don't even kno for sure if the Gospels are an accurate record of His words.
I know they are. I think it very funny the lengths so many of you go to in deciding they are untrue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Brian, posted 09-28-2006 1:24 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by iano, posted 09-28-2006 1:42 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 128 by mike the wiz, posted 09-28-2006 1:57 PM Faith has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 122 of 182 (352844)
09-28-2006 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by Faith
09-28-2006 1:22 PM


How evil can one get?
You bet.
You know, you are quite a sick individual, not a shred of compassion in your black heart.
God warns of such judgments and then He brings them.
When did the children, as in little babies, in Jericho recieve this warning? When did the parents of children living on the outskirts of Egypt recieve the Passover warning?
There is no such thing as an innocent human being from the perspective of God and such an act is His judgment against them.
Spoken like a fully paid up member of the Al Qaeda ther Faith. You and your ilk and the fanatical Muslims really are not that different at all. I wonder just how far you would go to help God out.
That is clear from scripture. The message one SHOULD get from that, all you who proudly get morally indignant against God, is that the same judgment, in one form or another, in this life and/or the next, is coming to ALL human beings because we all sin -- all those who reject God's offer of safety from it that is.
You really really ought to seek some professional psychological help.
It must be a nightmare for you trapped in a fantasy world, there must be something, some sort of therapy that can help you.
The really sad thing is, you cannot see how evil you are looking right now. You condemn terrorist Muslims, but when it comes to it you really are no different and you cannot see it.
And who suffers in all this religious fanaticism? yes, the people who don't believe a word of it.
There will be another slaughter of the innocents, and they will all be atheists, caught up in the hatred between religious psychos who claim their fairytale is true and their opponemts isn't.
Love you neighbour unless God wants you to murder them.
Have you really thougth your faith through?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 1:22 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 2:12 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 123 of 182 (352845)
09-28-2006 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by iano
09-28-2006 1:29 PM


Re: I'm forever blowing bubbles
Huh? How do you figure that then
God is beyond confirmation, He cannot be shown to exist. You say you 'know' that He exists, if His existence was a fact you could prove to others that He exists regardless of their objections.
You only believe that you know, you have faith (belief) in you senses and that your experiences are real.
It takes real belief to trust that you have experienced an entity that cannot be detected.
brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by iano, posted 09-28-2006 1:29 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by iano, posted 09-28-2006 1:52 PM Brian has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 124 of 182 (352847)
09-28-2006 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
09-28-2006 1:33 PM


Re: Even Jesus lied?
I can hardly wait. I'm sick of being a sinner.
Tell me about it
I know they are. I think it very funny the lengths so many of you go to in deciding they are untrue.
I wonder would they spend so much effort arguing against the existance of the IPU were a genuine IPU believer ever to actually show up. The hours spent protesting against something you do not believe in in the first place?
Maybe its all in the cause of defending the integrity of science: fighting on the beaches, in the air etc

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 1:33 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by Brian, posted 09-28-2006 1:52 PM iano has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 125 of 182 (352849)
09-28-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by iano
09-28-2006 1:42 PM


Re: Even Jesus lied?
Tell me about it
Your doctor can arrange some self esteem classes Ian, that's such a low opinion you have of yourself there. You're not that bad a guy, a bit mental but not that bad
Maybe its all in the cause of defending the integrity of science: fighting on the beaches, in the air etc
Ever consider that 'they' may be after something a bit more simple than that, like the truth?
I know as a fundamentalist Christian the truth isn't high on your list of priorities, but for us honest atheists it is very high. Biblical scholars, believers and non-believers, are after the same thing, the truth, that one set of us has a different methodological approach makes no difference. We write for our audiences, that is the free thinking, rational, intelligent people, and the probible scholars write for their audience, the ones that are scared to think for themselves, irrational, and weak willed people.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by iano, posted 09-28-2006 1:42 PM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 126 of 182 (352850)
09-28-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Brian
09-28-2006 1:41 PM


Re: I'm forever blowing bubbles
God is beyond confirmation, He cannot be shown to exist.
Confirmation to others you mean? Whats that got to do with me knowing he exists?
Shown to others to exist? Whats that got to do with me knowing he exists?
You say you 'know' that He exists, if His existence was a fact you could prove to others that He exists regardless of their objections.
More bunkum.
You were saying I only believe I know he exists. Elaborate if you like
{AbE} Looking around a bit above I can see your not in the mood. Leave it for another day perhaps
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Brian, posted 09-28-2006 1:41 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Brian, posted 09-28-2006 1:56 PM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 127 of 182 (352854)
09-28-2006 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by iano
09-28-2006 1:52 PM


I'm forever blowing bubbles
Just noticed that the subheading reminds me of a Michael Jackson joke.
Shown to others to exist? Whats that got to do with me knowing he exists?
Because external confirmation is the best way of confirming anything.
For you to tell others that you know God exists is pointless if you cannot demonstrate to others that He is real.
I don't know if God exists or not, there is no way to tell, but my FAITH is atheism because I choose to follow it.
When someone like you fails to provide anything worthwhile to support the existence of God it only strengthens my faith.
How do you know you can trust your senses?
How do you know what you experienced of God can be trusted?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by iano, posted 09-28-2006 1:52 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by iano, posted 09-28-2006 2:07 PM Brian has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 128 of 182 (352855)
09-28-2006 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Faith
09-28-2006 1:33 PM


Re: Even Jesus lied?
Because of what scripture tells me about his nature. He was the new Adam, sinless.
Earlier on you said that judgement would come to all, because all have sin, in response to Brian's question about the order to kill children (babies).
If Jesus is sinless, then babies are sinless, because Jesus was born to a woman who, according to your logic, who had sin. And I quote "There is no such thing as an innocent human being from the perspective of God".
See the error? Babies are innocent. If you say babies are not innocent, then your logic fails, because then Jesus isn't, because he came from a sinful woman.
We ought to be paying attention. There is no such thing as an innocent human being from the perspective of God
You can't have it both ways; here's a clear double standard in your thought processes.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 1:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 2:21 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 129 of 182 (352857)
09-28-2006 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by iano
09-28-2006 10:18 AM


Re: Oh know!
I think at this stage we might aswell agree to disagree. Which is okay, debate doesn't have to be a fight to the deat like buz versus Shraff.
You say you could be deluded in saying you know God. Personally, I know I was deluded when I thought I knew this.
Bye for now, God bless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by iano, posted 09-28-2006 10:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by iano, posted 09-28-2006 2:08 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 130 of 182 (352858)
09-28-2006 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Brian
09-28-2006 1:56 PM


Re: I'm forever blowing bubbles
Just noticed that the subheading reminds me of a Michael Jackson joke.
(although I look forward to the day I don't get it)
Because external confirmation is the best way of confirming anything
To lots of other people. For sure. I agree. Not to oneself of course.
For you to tell others that you know God exists is pointless if you cannot demonstrate to others that He is real.
I wouldn't say pointless at all. Let me explain what I am doing.
I'm not so much trying to prove that I do know God exist. I am attempting prove that I can know (in precisely the same way we know other things we cannot demonstrate or prove to anyone else - yet we know them)
If a person is satisfied with my demonstrating that: that I (or anyone else for that matter) is in a position to know God exists then my claiming to know so leaves limited options (I think they boil down to the following)
- I am deluded
- I am lying
- the sense of reality we seem to all share is not the actual reality. Somebody can know something that is not the case
- I know God exists just like they know they got up this morning
Which option they pick is for them to decide. I just want that last option to be included. Its called an apologetic. Not a proof. You don't prove God to people. God proves God to people.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Brian, posted 09-28-2006 1:56 PM Brian has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 131 of 182 (352859)
09-28-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by mike the wiz
09-28-2006 2:03 PM


Re: Oh know!
Good idea. Time to head from the grindstone myself. God bless yourself

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by mike the wiz, posted 09-28-2006 2:03 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 132 of 182 (352862)
09-28-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Brian
09-28-2006 1:35 PM


Re: How evil can one get?
Really no point in defending myself I suppose, they said the same and worse about Jesus, and the servant is not greater than his master. But really, Brian, you ought to know that Christians are not called to anything BUT compassion for our fellow human beings. It is God who judges and condemns, and we are specifically told not to. I personally fear for many I love who to this point reject God, and I pray for many I don't even know that they too will be saved. In my human flesh I'm selfish and don't care about others, but even then I don't wish harm to them; but in Christ I am very concerned for others, because He is.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Brian, posted 09-28-2006 1:35 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Brian, posted 09-28-2006 2:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 133 of 182 (352863)
09-28-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by mike the wiz
09-28-2006 1:57 PM


Re: Even Jesus lied?
Because of what scripture tells me about his nature. He was the new Adam, sinless.
Earlier on you said that judgement would come to all, because all have sin, in response to Brian's question about the order to kill children (babies).
He called them innocent and the point was that nobody is innocent, and it's God's prerogative to judge, not ours.
If Jesus is sinless, then babies are sinless, because Jesus was born to a woman who, according to your logic, who had sin. And I quote "There is no such thing as an innocent human being from the perspective of God".
That includes babies. Scripture is clear about that, and Augustine for one discussed it. Jesus was not tainted by sin through Mary although I'm not sure if that was because sin is not inherited through the mother, which I doubt, or because He didn't inherit his human nature from her either, but was made new just as Adam was, but that's a borderline heresy I understand. So I can't explain it myself, but I take the word of theologians on it.
See the error? Babies are innocent. If you say babies are not innocent, then your logic fails, because then Jesus isn't, because he came from a sinful woman.
Oh I see your logic, but I don't accept your logic. Jesus was utterly sinless, however that came about, because nobody could be saved if He weren't.
We ought to be paying attention. There is no such thing as an innocent human being from the perspective of God
You can't have it both ways; here's a clear double standard in your thought processes.
I believe the double standard is in yours, not mine. You are making up stuff that contradicts the gospel. You think it's illogical but who are you against the entire history of the church to say it's illogical? They've answered such stuff for millennia now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by mike the wiz, posted 09-28-2006 1:57 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by jar, posted 09-28-2006 3:39 PM Faith has replied
 Message 148 by Clark, posted 09-28-2006 3:44 PM Faith has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 134 of 182 (352864)
09-28-2006 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Faith
09-28-2006 2:12 PM


Re: How evil can one get?
Really no point in defending myself I suppose,
Your position is undefendable Faith. To any decent human being someone who condones that killing of babies is pure evil, you condemn Muslim terrorists for exactly the same thing.
they said the same and worse about Jesus, and the servant is not greater than his master.
But, Jesus never said the things that you said, in fact He preached the complete oppositie to what you believe!
Love everyone, but you are only filled with hate, I have no idea what happened in your life to make you so filled with hatred Faith, but it is there for all to see.
But really, Brian, you ought to know that Christians are not called to anything BUT compassion for our fellow human beings.
I believe that Christians are called to be compassionate for ALL human beings and this is one reason why I don;t consider you to be a Christian. You do not have a single ounce of compassion in your entire body for anyone that doesn't believe exactly the same as you do.
It is God who judges and condemns, and we are specifically told not to.
But you judge people in almost every post you make here!
I personally fear for many I love who to this point reject God, and I pray for many I don't even know that they too will be saved.
There you go judging again. Who are you to say that these people you are praying for are not going to be saved anyway? YOU have decided that they are not going to be saved, your actions are evidence of this.
In my human flesh I'm selfish and don't care about others, but even then I don't wish harm to them; but in Christ I am very concerned for others, because He is.
I think you should ditch this approach to Christianity that you have taken because it is very un-Christian.
You shouldn't be concerned for others JUST because Jesus is, when you truly find Jesus, if you ever do, you will discover that love for others and the urge to help them is second nature, Jesus doesn't even come in to it.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 2:12 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 09-28-2006 2:32 PM Brian has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 182 (352865)
09-28-2006 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Brian
09-28-2006 2:25 PM


Re: How evil can one get?
To any decent human being someone who condones that killing of babies is pure evil, you condemn Muslim terrorists for exactly the same thing.
Are you suggesting there is such a thing as objective evil, and that you know what it consists of?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Brian, posted 09-28-2006 2:25 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Brian, posted 09-28-2006 3:02 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 139 by Faith, posted 09-28-2006 3:08 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
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