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Author Topic:   More than flesh and blood?
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 52 of 62 (459904)
03-10-2008 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Larni
03-10-2008 5:51 PM


Re: More less?
There is another aspect to the Philosophy of Mind here that is relevant to this discussion and that is the notion of 'Qualia' - the subjective experience of mental states that are not included in any amount of physical information. On the surface, the idea seems redundant or simply arbitrary, but arguments put forth for the existence of Qualia have posed a bit of a challenge for Physicalism.
What does it mean to experience or 'feel' pain or pleasure or see the color blue?. These are the Qualia -- 'blueness','pain','pleasure'. Those who argue for the existence of Qualia assert that although their appearance can theoretically be reduced to a physical chain of causation, the experience of the qualia themselves by definition is non-physical and entirely subjective.
In this view, there is an obvious distinction between the experience of a thought and the contents or physical origins of the thought itself. In other words, there is no such thing as a physical sensation -- conscious experiences are neither physical nor mental but simply are another manifestation of the natural world. This is not a claim for the existence of the soul or an appeal to supernatural agencies but simply an assertion that there must be something other than 'physical'(at least as we define it here.)
Just some more food for thought and discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Larni, posted 03-10-2008 5:51 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Larni, posted 03-11-2008 9:20 AM Grizz has replied

  
Grizz
Member (Idle past 5471 days)
Posts: 318
Joined: 06-08-2007


Message 55 of 62 (459979)
03-11-2008 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Larni
03-11-2008 9:20 AM


Re: More less?
The big problem I have with Qualia is how do you tell a qualia zombie from someone whom can experience qualia?
Hi,
Assuming a zombie could in fact exist, you could not differentiate 'real' from 'artificial' for the same reason a subjective experience is not open to objective scrutiny. The reality of Qualia is not a scientific question but a metaphysical one. Such things by definition would be non-physical and subjective, and therefore not open to the direct type of experimental scrutiny employed in science. Their existence can only be inferred and not demonstrated objectively.
Science is not concerned with absolute truths or metaphysical speculations but is strictly a utilitarian tool to explain, predict, and model phenomenon directly or indirectly available to the senses. The goal of science is to gather data through observations and then proceed from there to construct a working theory that is useful in modeling and predicting future observations or infer prior or future states in an arbitrary system.
On Philosophical grounds, the ongoing epistemological challenge when discussing the neurosciences is how to recognize when one has fallen prey to the fallacy of association. Through observation and experiment we can certainly associate the subjective appearance of mental states and conscious sensations with the activity of the neurosystem; however, (If A then B) does not mean (A=B). Certainly, the activity and patterns of neurons within the brain equates to the manifestation of an experience, it does not however equate to Qualia being equal to a neuron or pattern of neurons. Just as we can easily observe that the behavior and existence of neurons produce a Qualia,,we can easily observe that gravity produces acceleration. In a Newtonian sense, it would be incorrect, however, to say acceleration=gravity. In this view, neuronal activity is simply the Modus Operandi of the manifestation of Qualia.
I tend to view Consciousness and Qualia as emergent phenomenon that are as fundamental to nature as is the phenomenon of gravity or electromagnetism. Of course, how well one accepts the arguments for or against the existence of Qualia depends on one's philosophical preferences. The subject is much more complex than it appears at first glance and delves deeply into the nature of Causation, Causal Necessity, Law, the definition of Subjective and Objective, and our theories of knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Larni, posted 03-11-2008 9:20 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Larni, posted 03-12-2008 9:21 AM Grizz has not replied

  
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