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Author Topic:   More than flesh and blood?
Explorer
Junior Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 24
From: Sweden
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 21 of 62 (458868)
03-02-2008 2:35 PM


I have a somewhat "heavy" argument on my side. Or a potential argument I should say because I myself never use it as such. I have a long experience (and I do mean long) with out of body experiences (OBE) and "astral travel". Many believe that this kind of experience is the ultimate proof that the soul exists. And I do admit it is tempting to draw that conclusion. However, things are not so "easy" as they seem to be when you have a little bit of common sense with you on these journeys. Not for me anyway. I have yet of this day come to a conclusion of exactly what is happening in these experiences and "where" the "astral-plane" actually is located. It is more than interesting this whole thing... there are some sceptics that learned how to have an OBE... so its not only for "the special humans with so much more spirituality in themselves-kind of bullshit". This is probably something that ALL humans can experience under the right conditions.
If someone looks up OBE and astral-travel on the net be prepared for some thousands of pages with "the soul leaves the body"-conclusions. And you will find pages with information that researchers have located the areas in the brain that does this (which then lands on where this debate is right now... are we more than some neurons firing). My current belief on these issues? I can only speculate at best and that leaves me 2 conclusions. 1. The brain is somehow connected with other realities (of some kind) 2. The brain has far more capacity than we ever imagined (the brain uses real simulation as a part of its natural function). Both conclusions could lead to rather fantastic changes in the way we see ourselves IF we somehow can prove what actually is going on some day with purely scientific method. As I stated before, I do believe in the scientific method . and I do believe in this case that some day we will understand all of this, whatever the fantastic truth may be.
In edit mode:
I must make a statement here about OBE... I really tried to keeping it short because this subject is so big and there is many more things I can say about it and why people are so convinced that this IS the ultimate proof of the soul.
I do believe that we are more then flesh and blood... but these things doesn’t work as proofs of it for me even though I have a ton of experience (perhaps thats why...). Although I can see them as indications of that we do not even begin to understand the human brain and the mind in a broader perspective (apart from the mechanic way to look at it).
Edited by Explorer, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 03-02-2008 3:11 PM Explorer has replied

  
Explorer
Junior Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 24
From: Sweden
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 23 of 62 (458885)
03-02-2008 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by AZPaul3
03-02-2008 3:11 PM


As I said I am very aware of such findings, AZPaul3.
And you will find pages with information that researchers have located the areas in the brain that does this (which then lands on where this debate is right now... are we more than some neurons firing).
But I thank you for providing the links anyway. Surely others that read the thread will find it usefull to read.
My experiences comes from "enhancing" sleeping paralysis and that is probably the most simple way for people to access the "astral-plane" and to get an OBE. Sleeping paralysis is very common. Meditation and such does not work for me at all.
My doctor? I do not consider these experiences health-threatening only life-enhancing (by that I mean that they sure bring many more dimensions in this life). Although I can find them annoying when I do not want them... as you can read in the wiki-article, it can be rather frightening. The wiki-article does not connect the dots to "astral-travel" which is a little bit dissapointing.
Wikipedia on sleeping paralysis:
Sleep paralysis - Wikipedia
Edited by Explorer, : No reason given.
Edited by Explorer, : Provided more

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by AZPaul3, posted 03-02-2008 3:11 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 03-03-2008 4:44 AM Explorer has replied

  
Explorer
Junior Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 24
From: Sweden
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 24 of 62 (458926)
03-02-2008 6:44 PM


Taz has a good point in that physical injury can cause severe personality-shifts. And if one property of the soul is some kind of basic personality, this shouldn't occur. If the soul exists and has some kind of property that can't be "personality" for sure. Of course one could always argue around this and come to the conclusion that the soul is slave under the body and a damage to the body is a damage to the soul (but that does not concur with most theories of the soul). I find the concept of a soul somewhat complicated. We have the most complex thing in the known universe in our heads (and we still don’t know how it works). However, it is not only "neurons firing" cause then there wouldn't be such things as bio-feedback or any self-awarness at all probably (we wouldn't be sitting here and feel/know/perceive that we exists)... something else is going on but at the present time we cannot identify what it is. For all I know the nature of consciousness could be extraordinary difficult to identify. It would perhaps require that we have something to refer to... in the closest time that would be AI. In the distant future... maybe alien contanct?
I can even turn the soul-concept 180-degrees and speculate that the human evolution is gonna take a big leap forward by us INVENTING something that could be called a soul, something that actually can live past us when our physical body dies. It's a popular concept in sci-fi, disconnecting the mind from the body and transfer it to a computer for instance (or a new body).

  
Explorer
Junior Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 24
From: Sweden
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 26 of 62 (458994)
03-03-2008 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Larni
03-03-2008 4:44 AM


I do know that, Larni. I am very familiar with all of these conditions.
You see, in an OBE the signs of these hallucinations dims and vanishes completely (sometimes there are no signs of any anomaly at all in the beginning). We are talking about two different experiences here. In the link you gave me such distinction is not very clear and I believe it’s due to that OBE is so close in time to other conditions. It could be that the material for facts around OBE is not that big due to that it is fairly uncommon for people to experiment with these things. Now, OBE CAN in their turn become "dreamy" (details that occur looks like taken from an ordinary dream). This happens now and then and when it happens it is very clear and understood, at least for an experienced person. Astral travel is yet another state of mind in where the "condition" you experience in OBE stays but the environment changes. It is not uncommon ending up in some strange world and talking to creatures apparently living there. Now, that must surely mean that it is an ordinary dream? It does not. Larni, as you work with peoples feelings and such, you must know that a dream always has a "theme" from the subconsciousness that so to say "governs" the dream. In a lucid dream the mind is so awake that it understands that the happenings in the dream is unreal and therefore one can conclude that it is a dream for a fact. In an OBE the mind is awake and one can conclude that it is not a dream, rather something very close to reality but again not. In astral travel the mind is also clear and you find yourself walking through strange environments and strange worlds... sometimes talking with what appears to be inhabitants in those worlds. The difference between this and ordinary dreaming is that astral projections lack a (clear) "dream-theme" , there is no theme governing the state of mind of what happens in these conditions. The closest thing is probably lucid dreaming but even a lucid dream has its origin in a dream and behaves differently. The astral projections has their origin in often clear OBE's. One note of OBE's... almost 100 % of the OBE occur in the exact environment you sleep in but when you explore the close environment in OBE little things can be different in the environment, like the placing of furniture and such, but very often the general environment, like placing of walls and doors is unchanged. I have not done any serious experiments with looking (for a special object or so) at a place which is beyond my normal senses (i mean far beyond)... I can say that the environment roughly is correct at least a hundred meters from where you sleep. But then I do not believe that OBE's actually occurs "out of body" (the soul escaping). And this is strange... even if I change environment the OBE still occurs exactly where I sleep.
There is one more thing that sets the difference between dreams and OBE/astral projections. The sleep paralysis condition is common and probably animals can experience this too. What the animals probably not experience or would do is to try to make something more of this condition. For that requires a free will (to actually confront unpleasant situations), self-reflection (to realise that you wouldn’t die just because a feeling was scary) AND advanced memory cause without such a memory you would forget till the next time what you did to make the most out of it. NOTE and clarification: To experience OBE and astral projections it takes a rather big effort... which separates them from dreaming which occurs automatically. However, sometimes OBE can occur automatically. I have experienced it only on some rare occations and from talking to other people that have these things too, it is rather unusal.
As I said before... this is so big and it is not simple at all to get this down in words that are useful to others. This is all experience, people, it is far from an “objective” truth. But it is very interesting and probably will be even more interesting when some kind of truth can be found in all this. In the link you gave me, Larni, abductions is mentioned . after listening to some folks on TV about their abductions and some other on ghosts I can say that (as in the text) these are probably very strong hypnagogic hallucinations. Fear and anxiety enhances these conditions and for someone who has never had them it can probably build up some strange scenarios from the subconsciousness with aliens coming to get you.
Does it sound strange that many people sees this as the ultimate proof of the soul’s existence?
Edited by Explorer, : No reason given.
Edited by Explorer, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 03-03-2008 4:44 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Larni, posted 03-03-2008 9:27 AM Explorer has replied

  
Explorer
Junior Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 24
From: Sweden
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 28 of 62 (459011)
03-03-2008 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Larni
03-03-2008 9:27 AM


I remember a time when I was on 'shrooms and I could detect no 'anonalies'. In conversation with a friend who suffered a psychotic episode this person indicated that it was real with no 'anomalies'. 'No anomalies' in not exclusive to OBE.
It is not fair to compare a state of mind induced by drugs and a state of mind without drugs.
About the links. You could argue that if we successfully create a state of mind that is equal to OBE such a thing would prove exactly what goes on... but that does not mean that we actually found "the OBE mechanism". It could be that many areas in the brain OR a mix of areas would encount for a variety of similar experiences.
Putting a person under surveillance while he is experiencing sleeping paralys followed by an OBE is surely the best way to explore such a thing that I and others are capable of producing. And I believe such things have been done. Don’t have any links at the moment.
So the Astral travel takes plce in a place other than on Earth? Thats very unverifiable.
Really... thought it was clear that I didn’t provide some fact other than my own experiences. As for my own belief I cant come to a real conclusion other than my own speculation which I have written down earlier.
About your dream. If I can pick up a theme? Well, there were a lot of emotions in it. By theme I actually meant some sort of emotional theme. So, there were many themes... and please, I do not have any education so this is only laymans opinion and experiences. But I shall make one thing clear... it is possible to DREAM that you have an OBE, which I have done on some occasions... and it is far from a real OBE. As for astral projections they are definitely close to dreams when it comes to behaviour but differ in the way that there are no "dramatic" emotional theme involved... I could even call such things OBE-dreams.
What I believe and what I know is two different things. I try to keep them apart. Thanks to that I have not become a new-age-hippie and neither a hardcore-sceptic.
Edited by Explorer, : Described astral pr. in a more detailed way

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Larni, posted 03-03-2008 9:27 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Larni, posted 03-03-2008 10:50 AM Explorer has replied

  
Explorer
Junior Member (Idle past 5869 days)
Posts: 24
From: Sweden
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 30 of 62 (459030)
03-03-2008 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Larni
03-03-2008 10:50 AM


Yes, "experience" is a fitting word.
So, is lacking a theme specific to astral progection? Are you saying that if the 'experience' (shall we call it 'experience'?) lacks a theme it is definitly astral progection? Or are there other defining variables?
I shall try to answer as good as I can. Lucid dreams, especially in the end of such, there is a similar lack of dream-theme. People in such dreams gets "inactive" or passive, the environment also "slows down" in happenings. At the very end of lucid dreams it is like standing on a set on a theatre, the dream has stopped. The astral projections originates from OBE's - I have never had an astral projection without a short OBE before that. I find that strange myself, lucid dreams certainly qualify as a beginning of an astral projection but it never happens that way.
This can be a defining variable. The OBE's occurs in the direct environment where you sleep. MANY of my own astral projections is about environmental changes. After stepping through a door the environment could have changed a lot. Some of the strange places I come to have in common that the environment is kind of strange. I remember for instance coming to places where everything was made of wooden-boards and I wondered "why build such a place, must be very unpractical". So, many of my own astral projections seems focused on some kind of change in the environment. Interaction with eventual people I see is often rare. It is quite rare that you meet people "out there" actually and when you do they often don’t wanna talk that much, just passing by or not even noticing. Interaction with the details in an astral projection is very low. And on the other side the freedom is very great, you can explore and go wherever you like in the places you come to.
So, astral projections often share some strange environmental change, often a change in the OBE-environment itself to start with. In ordinary dreams we are "provided" with all sorts of impression, ranging from environments to feelings and people. And that is what makes a "dreamy-OBE" easy to notice. In astral projections one is provided mainly with environments and rarely any other things.
EDIT: Of course the closest thing to these experiences is dreaming but if it relates to dreaming in a "brain-way" (we can find similar patterns as in dreams in the brain) it sure is some sort of advanced dreaming, therefore "simulation" is actually closer to these experiences and for me a good theory. The somewhat "goofy" enviroments and happenings in astral projections makes people connect the dots from "I am out of my body" to "Wow, how did I come to this place from out of my body"... and the new-age concept of "astral projection" is there.
Hope I gave a good description.
Edited by Explorer, : No reason given.
Edited by Explorer, : No reason given.
Edited by Explorer, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Larni, posted 03-03-2008 10:50 AM Larni has not replied

  
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