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Author Topic:   Is man inherently good or inherently evil?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 196 of 271 (154612)
10-31-2004 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Rrhain
10-31-2004 2:45 PM


I'm guessing that you would get "will" through information.
Faith is a quest for knowledge. Is that how you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Rrhain, posted 10-31-2004 2:45 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Rrhain, posted 10-31-2004 3:39 PM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 197 of 271 (154616)
10-31-2004 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by riVeRraT
10-31-2004 7:26 AM


riVeRraT responds to me:
quote:
Congradulations, you have just called all Jews who follow Jesus idiots.
(*chuckle*)
Jews for Jesus is a Chistian organization. They aren't Jews...they're Baptists. It was founded in 1973 by Martin Rosen, a Baptist minister. Their official mission statement is "to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide." They certainly claim that they're missionaries are Jewish, but analysis of those missionaries shows that they are only married to Jews or can only trace a Jewish lineage through their father's line...which means they aren't Jewish. In other words, they lie.
In other words, they're a bunch of lying Christians out to forcibly convert Jews.
Try again.
quote:
quote:
Way to go! Condemn me to hell! That's really respectful. I can feel the love all the way from here. You've seen this before. Say it with me:
Demise does not equal Hell.
Don't insult my intelligence, riVeRraT. We all know what you meant.
If you really didn't mean it, then bless us with your wisdom and tell us what you really meant. If my supposed opinion that I am "greater than" you will be my demise, what does that mean, specifically? What is our relationship such that you will come to have some sort of power over me?
quote:
quote:
How on earth is that showing any sign of respect to someone else?
Um no.
Thank you for agreeing with me that it is not respectful.
Now, stop it.
quote:
quote:
Isaiah 45:7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Like I said before, and God wrote that with his hand?
And as I responded to you before, if the Bible cannot be trusted to be an accurate reflection of god, how can we trust any of it? If this verse isn't true, what gives us confidence that any other verse is?
quote:
Then its not judging if I say it will be your demise.
Yes, it is! You seem to think that you have a direct line to god and know what will be done. That somehow my actions will cause disfavor in the eyes of god and cause my "demise." Who are you to tell god what to do? Whether or not something will be my demise is beyond you as you are not the one that gets to make that decision.
Unless you are the one that is the cause of the demise, it is a judgement call to say that it will be.
So if you didn't mean I'm going to hell, then please explain how you are going to gain power over me such that you will be the direct cause of my demise.
In other words, riVeRraT, if it isn't a judgement, it's a threat. Do I need to call the police?
quote:
quote:
I wasn't the one making the claim, riVeRraT. You were. You were the one that said that if people do things outside of doing it for god, they're doing it for themselves.
That sounds like selfishness to me.
There is only one path to righteousness.
Congratulations, riVeRraT. You just condemned everybody who doesn't believe in your god to hell.
You don't know when to quit, do you?
quote:
quote:
I certainly have you pegged. You've already apologized to me once.
So this is how you judge others?
Yep. I don't condemn anybody to hell the way some people do.
quote:
Pascal's Wager.
Incorrect. Pascal's Wager is the (false) philosophical claim that one should believe in god (specifically, the Catholic god). The idea is that if there is no god, then those who believe have lost nothing even though they gain nothing, either. But if there is a god, those who don't believe lose everything as they will be condemned to hell. Therefore, from a supposedly "pure mathematical" stance, one should believe in god since it results in no loss for infinite gain.
It is false, of course, because it assumes only one god, that we know who that god is, and that we understand the intentions of that god. It also ignores the cost of faith should there be no god.
But notice the kicker: Condemnation to hell.
Were did I even hint that you were going to hell, riVeRraT?
quote:
quote:
You've already had to apologize to me once.
No I haven't
Oh, for crying out loud. Do I need to go through every single one of your posts to find it? We had this conversation before where I dressed you down about your insulting behaviour and you eventually said that yes, you had insulted me, you didn't mean it, you were sorry you had done it, and you apologized.
Fortunately, I did learn (a little bit) from the last time and I saved the quote for which you apologized:
Message 142 of the "Religion in Government" thread:
Acting like a wise guy will not get you into the gates of heaven either.
Remember it now? Here, let me remind you of the apology you made a hundred posts later:
Message 251 of the "Religion in Government" thread:
Yes you are right, I was wrong. I shouldn't have said that. It was an assumption and goes against what I believe in, even if it is true. I mean the bible teaches us this is what I should have said. Sorry.
Now, do you really want me to post all of the other quotes of yours I have collected where we find you judging people and condemning them to hell?
Some may consider this to be indicative of me having a vendetta against you but it's more that you seem to have the attention span of a gnat and can't even remember what you yourself said moments ago. Rather than try to have to reconstruct everything from scratch each time you make this blunder, I have decided to simply collect them to make it easier.
quote:
What are you going to say to God about your sins?
What are you going to say to God about your sins?
What will you say?
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, riVeRraT. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!
Well, Bob, riVeRraT has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, riVeRraT gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.
But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.
You didn't really think that the god that truly exists was the Christian one, did you?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2004 7:26 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 12:25 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 198 of 271 (154622)
10-31-2004 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by riVeRraT
10-31-2004 7:33 AM


riVeRrat responds to me:
quote:
quote:
physicall
It says that?
Now, since riVeRraT seems to be incapable of providing context, let me provide the full quote of what I said:
The Messiah was supposed to be a warlord who would directly and physically cast out the unrighteous and unite the nation.
And to answer the question, yes. Micah 5. And in case you claim that Micah 5 isn't about Jesus (which makes you wonder who its about because it didn't happen...not to mention that Matthew 2 claims that it is about Jesus), there's always Zecharaih that both Matthew 21 and John 12 claim is about Jesus. Of course, they only refer to verse 9:9 since to go beyond that would mean that Jesus is a warlord as seen by the full set of verses:
Zechariah 9:9: Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
9:10: And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
9:11: As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
9:12: Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;
9:13: When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.
9:14: And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the LORD God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
9:15: The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
9:16: And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
9:17: For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids
Now, this leaves one wondering why I know the Bible better than someone who has faith in it?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2004 7:33 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 12:53 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 199 of 271 (154625)
10-31-2004 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
10-31-2004 11:28 AM


Re: Rat is having a Rrhainy day...
Phatboy asks of me:
quote:
Do you think that humans are basically and inherently "good"?
Without definitions of "good" and "evil" to go off of, I cannot answer that question. And, of course, that requires examination of where the definitions came from.
quote:
What is the source of our standard?
All I can talk about is what people actually do and the reality is that people are the source of the standard. Even people who claim that their standard comes from god will show that they make up the rules as they go along when examined.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 10-31-2004 11:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 200 of 271 (154626)
10-31-2004 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Phat
10-31-2004 2:48 PM


Phatboy responds to me:
quote:
I'm guessing that you would get "will" through information.
No, you get knowledge from information.
quote:
Faith is a quest for knowledge. Is that how you think?
No, curiosity is a quest for knowledge.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Phat, posted 10-31-2004 2:48 PM Phat has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 201 of 271 (154678)
10-31-2004 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Phat
10-27-2004 11:05 AM


Yes, I am. What objective evidence do you have that it is anything other than a myth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Phat, posted 10-27-2004 11:05 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 10-31-2004 9:49 PM ramoss has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 202 of 271 (154679)
10-31-2004 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by riVeRraT
10-27-2004 12:55 PM


On the contrary.
The misinterpretaitons of CHristians , using bad translations, and pushing pagan myths as well as pagan concepts onto the Jewish religion is irrelavent to the Jewish faith.
The concept of the Messiah is different in Judaism. Jesus also did not met the requirement for the Jewish messiah. ALso, the concept of prophecy is not 'predicting the future' in Judaism either.
You got there major misconceptions in one paragraph about the Jewish religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by riVeRraT, posted 10-27-2004 12:55 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 12:59 AM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 203 of 271 (154681)
10-31-2004 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by riVeRraT
10-30-2004 12:23 PM


No, actually it isn't.
I will accept your bigoted statements about Jews is based on your vast ignorance.
He is quite correct though. Jews do not need Jesus. Jesus is irrelavent to the Jews.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by riVeRraT, posted 10-30-2004 12:23 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Rrhain, posted 10-31-2004 9:46 PM ramoss has replied
 Message 212 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 1:03 AM ramoss has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 204 of 271 (154682)
10-31-2004 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by riVeRraT
10-31-2004 7:26 AM


No one who follows the Jewish faith follows Jesus.
The so called 'Jews for Jesus" or "messanic jews" are southern baptists dressed up to sound jewish. Most of the J4J don't even HAVE Jewish ancestory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by riVeRraT, posted 10-31-2004 7:26 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by riVeRraT, posted 11-01-2004 1:05 AM ramoss has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 205 of 271 (154685)
10-31-2004 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by ramoss
10-31-2004 9:33 PM


ramoss writes:
quote:
Jesus is irrelavent to the Jews.
Well, I wouldn't say he's irrelevant, but he certainly does not mean nearly what he means to Christians. As Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon said, Jesus (and Mohammed) "served to clear the way for the King Messiah to prepare the whole world to worship God with one accord, as it is written 'For then will I turn to the peoples a pure language, that they all call upon the name of the Lord to serve Him with one consent.' (Zephaniah 3:9)."
To Judaism, Jesus was a prophet, one who directly contradicted Jewish law by claiming to be god (which the Messiah is not, according to Jewish tradition), and absolutely failed in fulfilling any prophecies of the Messiah, especially by being crucified at the hands of the Romans. According to Judaism, there is no concept of the Messiah dying and being resurrected.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by ramoss, posted 10-31-2004 9:33 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ramoss, posted 11-05-2004 11:29 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 206 of 271 (154686)
10-31-2004 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by ramoss
10-31-2004 9:27 PM


ramoss writes:
What objective evidence do you have that it is anything other than a myth?
Well for one thing, I am unconvinced that the serious work and studies of several great Biblical apologists who have done their homework can be dismissed or disproven so easily or entirely. The work of Josh McDowell, while mocked and challenged halfheartedly on the net, is quite concise and provable. Another great apologist is a former professor of law at Harvard. I forget his namde but I believe it is Greenleaf. To summize, I have seen and read the books of evidence for Biblical authenticity and Historical verification of the Resurrection and they look quite solid to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by ramoss, posted 10-31-2004 9:27 PM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by lfen, posted 10-31-2004 10:32 PM Phat has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4678 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 207 of 271 (154694)
10-31-2004 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Phat
10-31-2004 9:49 PM


The work of Josh McDowell, while mocked and challenged halfheartedly on the net, is quite concise and provable.
If provable it also must be falsifiable. Can you prove it? It appears to me to have been falsified. What seems well established historically is that after Constantine Christianity was the dominant religious system in Europe. The books that it based it's religion on are of uncertain origin. The claim of Jesus's resurrection that is at the core of the religion effects history through the church. There is no other evidence of it that anyone has brought forth.
McDowell seems incapable of reasoning. He claims that there are 14,000 or 26,000 manuscripts of the New Testament. So what? What we need is not thousands of manuscripts from the Middle Ages (which is when most of these were written), but two or three from the exact time that Jesus supposedly lived and died. We have none until at least 40-60 years later (that is none was written down until then, but things remained in an oral tradition form), and we have no copies of any Gospel until the Codex Sianaticus of 350 A.D., more than 300 years later.
Gordon Stein Charade » Internet Infidels
The cultural history of religion is a fact. The propositions that religions put forth are not facts unless and until they are supported by evidence.
Religious beliefs can have significant effects on behaviour and feelings but that is evidence of the power of imagination and belief not evidence of the truth of the propositions that are believed in. I understand the profound appeal and comfort traditional cultural religious traditions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, Hinduism, etc. These are world views that are taken as "real" by believers in them. The human imagination has created many religions. With science and inductive reasoning arose a new approach to knowledge. It would be comforting to believers in traditional religions if science could confirm as fact the things they imagine to be true. Unfortunately it doesn't. Still each of us has the freedom to imagine the world we live in as we have come to believe it to be.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Phat, posted 10-31-2004 9:49 PM Phat has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 208 of 271 (154719)
10-31-2004 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
10-31-2004 11:28 AM


Re: Rat is having a Rrhainy day...
It was for rhain, not you.
rhain does not make me angry in the least. He just spreads confusion, and that picture is what God showed me about him. He knows what it means, I do not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 10-31-2004 11:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 209 of 271 (154724)
11-01-2004 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by Rrhain
10-31-2004 3:17 PM


In other words, they're a bunch of lying Christians out to forcibly convert Jews.
Great, now they are liars. Whats next?
Don't insult my intelligence, riVeRraT. We all know what you meant.
NO, you think you know what I meant. What I meant is what I said, something you may not be familiar with.
It is not the power I have over you, it is the exact opposite. It is how you stand firm in all your logic. I can see very clearly that your logic fails many times, and then one day you will realize it too. Then you demise will be meet. It will happen while you are alive, so it would have been impossible for me to have condemmed you to hell by saying that. I made it very clear to you, SEVERAL times that I do not condem people to hell, and I only judge them if it is in a good way.
Good will come from this bad rhain.
Unlike you, I realize that no matter how smart I think I am, I can be smarter. I also realize that I can learn from anybody, as I could not experience everything in life that they have, and the order of events that brings them to a certain point in life. I am not afraid to be wrong.
But, and here's the good part. God has shown me that you will rise up again, and overcome it all.
And as I responded to you before, if the Bible cannot be trusted to be an accurate reflection of god, how can we trust any of it? If this verse isn't true, what gives us confidence that any other verse is?
Listen, your the one who doesn't believe the bible, not me. You are the one that takes things in the bible out of context, and then uses it to not believe. If the bible is not right, then stop using it to prove things rhain, plain and simple.
Isiah 45:7 doesn not mean that he makes evil just for the sake of making evil. He makes evil (or brings disaster) to evil doers, who do not follow his good word. He does this for the good. So yes all that God creates is good, even the evil. But the evil from man is not good.
If someone was murdering someone you love, and God came down and did evil to them, by killing the perpetrator on the spot. would you consider this good or evil?
That somehow my actions will cause disfavor in the eyes of god and cause my "demise."
The demise will come from inside yourself. Funny how you think I have a direct line to God though, was it something I said? You can have that line too. Take my hand brother. Funny how you think I am going to cause it, as if could never come from yourself. Do you feel threatened?
Congratulations, riVeRraT. You just condemned everybody who doesn't believe in your god to hell.
There you go again. If I say something, it means only that thing and nothing else. There is only one path to righteousness. GOD will judge the rest, not me. I do not condemn people, they condemn themselves.
How they do that, I do not know. But they do.
Yep. I don't condemn anybody to hell the way some people do.
Just yourself right?
Incorrect. Pascal's Wager is the (false) philosophical claim that one should believe in god (specifically, the Catholic god). The idea is that if there is no god, then those who believe have lost nothing even though they gain nothing, either. But if there is a god, those who don't believe lose everything as they will be condemned to hell. Therefore, from a supposedly "pure mathematical" stance, one should believe in god since it results in no loss for infinite gain.
No rhain, you cannot use mathematics to solve this one. Its not binary. This will be part of your demise, your binary way of thinking is going to let you down in a big way one day, I know this.
You've already had to apologize to me once.
No I haven't
I did not say that I have not apologized to you, I said I did not have to apologize to you. I did it to be nice. You should try it sometime.
your saving of quotes is pure non-sense. IF we communicate 10,000 words to each other and you or I forget one, it doesn't make one or the other invalid. It makes us human. But you think in binary, so you can't see that. I have proved you wrong to inother posts, I have proved you a hypocrite. Does that mean you can't make a good point, no. I will still listen to rhain, I Love you.
You on the other hand never apologize when you are wrong, mmmm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Rrhain, posted 10-31-2004 3:17 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Rrhain, posted 11-01-2004 1:12 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 210 of 271 (154732)
11-01-2004 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Rrhain
10-31-2004 3:32 PM


Lets see: rhains interpretation of Zechariah 9:10
The Messiah was supposed to be a warlord who would directly and physically cast out the unrighteous and unite the nation.
The bibles, that he quoted:
9:10: And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
In his classic fashion of translating what someone says to fit his needs at the moment, he thinks that speaking peace to heathen means he will be a warlord.
His dominion is currently from sea even to sea
And in the end (I love starting a sentence with and) it will be even more so, to the ends of the earth
Oh, and about faith in the bible:
I never claimed to know the bible better than anyone. I haven't even read the whole thing yet. I have completed the NT 2 times. I am not an expert on it. But the bible definatly contains God's word. The more I read it, and get into these type of debates, the more confirmation I get. I have recieved God's Holy word through the bible, and a baptism of the Holy Spirit. Knowing God's word in my heart allows me to translate what I read better than you so far. Without knowing God's word, and being led by deception, of course you would find all these contradictions.
Even still, if the bible has mistakes in it, either from translation, or mistakes from the author, It still contains God's word.
I try to focus mainly on what Jesus said. He promised a lot of things, and I have recieved them all, and continus to recieved them on a daily basis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Rrhain, posted 10-31-2004 3:32 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Rrhain, posted 11-01-2004 1:33 AM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 247 by ramoss, posted 11-05-2004 11:35 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
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