Is man inherently good or inherently evil?

I guess coming back after he dies doesn't qualify.What verses in the bible refer to all those claims you are making.What differences are between the Torah and the OT?

That is an odd question.
I think it is the lack of secular evidence that you are looking for.

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Therefore, for Jesus to claim to be god proves that he could not possibly be the Messiah. Anyone who claims otherwise is violating the primary concept of Judaism: One god.

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Ha! Concept. So God is a concept now.

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In that concepts are nouns and god is a noun, yes. Is this part of your anti-rhetoric glee? Are you incapable of talking about how people conceptualize the world around them?

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You seem to be confusing the word "deny" with "persecute." The fact that Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah is not persecution.

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Jews are not refusing to accept the divinity of Jesus out of spite.

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No they do it out of fear. Fear of losing power and control, the same as 2,000 years ago.

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No, it can't be because they're sincere in their beliefs. It can't be because they think they're right. They have to be doing it because they're afraid. They have to be doing it because they know that you're right and are just spiteful and willful and evil.Congratulations, riVeRraT. You've just insulted all Jews again. You really don't know when to quit, do you?

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In other words, Jesus isn't god. Jesus can't be god. If Jesus were god, that would violate the very first commandment. You really have no idea what Judaism is, do you? But then again, how can you when you readily admit that you haven't even bothered to read the Old Testament?

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The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.

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Like one of us.

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Keep going...you admit you haven't read the whole thing. I even told you precisely where to look. I even quoted you the specific text you needed to keep in mind:I am the lord, your god. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.You seem to forget that Judaism evolved from its Babylonian, polytheistic roots into the monotheistic religion we have today. If you read the Old Testament, you can watch it shift right in front of your eyes. Heck, even in Genesis, it keeps flipping back and forth. Like it or not, Judaism at the time of Jesus was monotheistic. There is no other god. Everything (and that means everything as Isaiah 45:7 points out) comes from the singular source of god.For Jesus to claim to be god would be to violate the first commandment.

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Apparently, it makes a great deal of difference to you. You're the one who keeps calling Jews fools for not accepting Jesus.

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Being fooled, and never being taught the truth, is not being a fool.

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But they have been taught the truth: Jesus isn't the Messiah.

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The Jews I have spoken with are forbidden to even talk about Jesus.

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(*chuckle*)Now I know you haven't spoken to a single Jew.

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Question: Does being married to a Jew make you a Jew?

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Does being a Jew make you not a Jew?

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Non sequitur. Let's try again, shall we?Question: Does being married to a Jew make you a Jew?

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The articla cleary states, for the 3rd time, that there are Jews involved

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Four the fourth time, the article is clearly lying. Examination of the people the article claims to be Jewish finds that they aren't. Just because somebody says that he's Jewish doesn't mean that he is.

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there still are people who are Jewish, that are not Jewish by marraige,

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Stop right there!This is the point of my question: Do you seriously think that someone can be "Jewish by marriage"?This is a very simple question. If you take more than one word to answer it, you are avoiding it.

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but by birth that belong to it.

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But that's just it...they're not even Jewish by birth.What do you think it takes to be "Jewish by birth"? It's very specific. Not just anybody qualifies.

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That would mean that at leas some of them are genuin, that is what I am trying to tell you, if you haven't got it yet.

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No, I get it. It is you that is under the unfortunate delusion. They aren't genuinue. They aren't Jewish. One cannot be "Jewish by marriage." Being born to a Jewish father does not make one Jewish.

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God isn't here to tell us.

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But the Holy Spirit is.

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Says who? You? Why should we believe you?Once again, you're violating the first commandment. No other gods before me. Have you ever noticed that the "Holy Spirit" never shows up until the New Testament? Why do you think that might be?

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Tell me, have you ever felt the Holy Spirit? Have you decided it was fake?

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Get used to disappointment. My religious experiences are irrelevant.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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I'm not the one condemning people to hell and calling Jews idiots.

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Sure you are rice-a-roni boy.

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Does the word "irony" mean nothing to you?Oh, that's right...that's that "rhetoric" that you detest so much.You will find that I have never brought up my standard response to Pascal's Wager except when someone invokes it. In other words, the only time I mention going to hell is when someone has specifically, consciously, and deliberately threatened someone else with it.And here's the thing, which apparently has escaped your anti-rhetoric euphoria, my own argument applies to me! Just as your condemnation of me to your Christian-tinged vision of hell is invalid due to the fallacy of Pascal's Wager, my comment about your afterlifetime supply of Rice-a-Roni is just as much invalid for the same reason.I use it to make a point, riVeRraT...one which is obviously beyond you, even when I spell it out in its entirety.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I have experienced this lie from a few Jews first hand. I am NOT claiming all Jews to be like that, as I have met a few that aren't. I do not pre-judge them at all.
I have not insulted anyone, just merely told the truth. The three are one. So you claim. So now your calling me a liar? You think I am incapable of knowing a Jew? Who do you think I am, what do you think I am?
I have worked for Moses, I have sipped whiskey from a silver cup in the cadilac of suka's, and told Jacob about Jesus, whoile his wife was sweating bullets, because of what we were talking about.
Please.... Yes they are, some of them. The article says so, I know one personally. I do not need you to tell me anymore lies about it. Don't believe, me, believe the Holy Spirit.1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was [1] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.The spirit of God, mmmmm.....

Right, I never do that. Even when I mentioned about something you said wouldn't help get you into the gates of heaven. That did not mean you are going to hell.I think I have told you about 100 times now, only God can judge and send you anywhere. But I do care where you go.You assume to much, faulty logic for sure.

riVeRraT responds to me:

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No, it can't be because they're sincere in their beliefs. It can't be because they think they're right. They have to be doing it because they're afraid. They have to be doing it because they know that you're right and are just spiteful and willful and evil.

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Congratulations, riVeRraT. You've just insulted all Jews again. You really don't know when to quit, do you?

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I have not insulted anyone, just merely told the truth.

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Oh, please. You claim that Jews reject Jesus because they are afraid and you have the gall to sit there and say you do not "pre-judge"? You have the unmitigated arrogance to claim that you tell the truth?

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For Jesus to claim to be god would be to violate the first commandment.

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The three are one.

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Nice try. There is no "three." There is only one. God does not need Jesus because if god wants to do something, god will do it. There is no such thing as "son of god" because that would mean that there is something other than god and that simply isn't the case.First commandment.

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But they have been taught the truth: Jesus isn't the Messiah.

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So you claim.

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So you know better than the Jews what Jews think? How arrogant.

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Now I know you haven't spoken to a single Jew.

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So now your calling me a liar?

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Yes.

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You think I am incapable of knowing a Jew?

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I have no idea if you are capable or not. All I know is that by your words, you clearly don't know anything about Judaism or Jews.

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But that's just it...they're not even Jewish by birth.

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Yes they are, some of them.

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No, they're not. They're lying to you.

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The article says so

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The article is lying.

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I know one personally.

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No, you don't. You are lying.

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Once again, you're violating the first commandment. No other gods before me. Have you ever noticed that the "Holy Spirit" never shows up until the New Testament? Why do you think that might be?

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Don't believe, me, believe the Holy Spirit.

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But there is no "Holy Spirit" in Judaism because that would mean there is more than one god and god clearly states that there is only one. Why would Jews listen to someone who violates the first commandment?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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You will find that I have never brought up my standard response to Pascal's Wager except when someone invokes it. In other words, the only time I mention going to hell is when someone has specifically, consciously, and deliberately threatened someone else with it.

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Right, I never do that.

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Incorrect. Message 188 of "Is man inherently good or inherently evil?" threadMessage 166 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 142 of the "Religion in Government" thread: You were saying:

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Even when I mentioned about something you said wouldn't help get you into the gates of heaven.

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(*chuckle*)You even apologized for that one, riVeRraT. What on earth would be the point of apologizing for saying I was going to hell if you weren't saying I was going to hell? After all, if I'm not getting into heaven, then where else do you expect me to go?

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I think I have told you about 100 times now, only God can judge and send you anywhere.

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Yes, but you don't seem to be willing to let god do his job. You seem to think you are capable of doing his job for him. You seem to think that god needs your help.You keep telling people that they are sinning: Message 212 of "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Message 186 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread, in response to comments about gay dolphins: Message 137 of the "Homosexuality and the bible: Round 2 - morality." thread: Same message: What is the point of this if not to point out that they're going to go to hell for it? Well, how the hell do you know? You're not god. God will be the one to decide and he doesn't need your help. You have enough problems of your own without worrying about whether or not other people are sinning. Be more concerned about the plank in thine own eye than the mote in your brother's.

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But I do care where you go.

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And as I keep telling you, I don't want you to care. God, assuming god exists, knows and if god wants me to change my ways, god will let me know. God does not need your help.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

That is what I see with my eyes. I may or may not be wrong, but I am not lying. At least I took the time in life to find the truth for myself. The three are one. This for you would be the hardest thing to understand in life because it is not logical, and logic runs your life. Your perception of what a Jew is supposed to be. Not all Jews are the same, just like Christians. We are now done, later.
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Unless you apologize.This message has been edited by riVeRraT, 11-08-2004 07:51 AM

This should only be charged if you have real evidence. The fact that RiverRat is confused isn't enough to charge this.This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-08-2004 10:17 AM

riVeRraT responds to me:

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Oh, please. You claim that Jews reject Jesus because they are afraid and you have the gall to sit there and say you do not "pre-judge"? You have the unmitigated arrogance to claim that you tell the truth?

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That is what I see with my eyes. I may or may not be wrong, but I am not lying.

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Yes, you are. No Jew acts that way. So unless you're willing to admit that you have a mental condition that prevents you from accurately judging the emotional states of others, then you are simply lying.

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At least I took the time in life to find the truth for myself.

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And Jews don't?

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The three are one.

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Nice try. There is no "three." There is only one. God does not need Jesus because if god wants to do something, god will do it. There is no such thing as "son of god" because that would mean that there is something other than god and that simply isn't the case.First commandment.

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I have no idea if you are capable or not. All I know is that by your words, you clearly don't know anything about Judaism or Jews.

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Your perception of what a Jew is supposed to be. Not all Jews are the same, just like Christians.

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Indeed, but I don't need to examine every single Jew to know that Jews are not Jews because they are afraid Christians might be right.

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No, you don't. You are lying.

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We are now done, later.

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You keep saying that but you never seem to go away.-----
Dropped a "not" which completely altered the meaning of a sentence.This message has been edited by Rrhain, 11-13-2004 05:14 PM

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

AdminNosy responds to me:

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No, you don't. You are lying.

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This should only be charged if you have real evidence.

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The evidence are the Jews, themselves.Are you seriously claiming that there are Jewish people who are Jewish simply because they are afraid Christians might be right?

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The fact that RiverRat is confused isn't enough to charge this.

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But that's just it. I'm not saying that he's confused. I'm saying he's making it up. If he had ever had any real contact with Jewish people and discussed what it means to be a Jew and how Judaism affects a Jew's daily life, then he would never make the claims that he has made.I'm not saying he has never met or talked with a Jew. I'm saying he has never had a heart-to-heart like he claims he has because if he had, he would never make such a claim.The evidence is in his own postings. Jews are Jews because they are afraid.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Awesome!

riVeRraT responds to me:

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I'm saying he's making it up.

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Awesome!

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I notice you don't deny it.Oh...and I thought you were through with me. Why are you responding when you're through with me?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Maybe he respects your opinions Rrhain.