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Author Topic:   God's Prophecies: what is behind them?
Brian
Member (Idle past 3275 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 46 of 77 (212613)
05-30-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Buzsaw
05-30-2005 10:04 AM


Re: Child, you're new here ...
If there's going to be some perameters of posting conduct on behalf of secularists, there should be some limit on total nonsense in Biblical interpretation.

The key word Buz is interpretation , and everyone is free to interpet the text as they wish.

Just because you think his interpretation is utter nonsense has nothing to do with its legitimacy. If I wanted to interpret Jonah's journey in the belly of the fish as an alien abduction, then I am free to do so.

Are you going to tell universalists that they cannot post here because you beieve that it is obvious that some people will be spending eternity in Hell?

These forums are for faith based issues, and they are called faith for a reason. You have faith in your interpretation, and Jar has faith in his, I have faith in mine and I have more to lose than both of you :Laugh:

Maybe instead of having a go at him you could discuss these differences in interpretation in a civil manner and try and understand each other better?

It is not as if Jar has never suported his interpretations of the texts, he always does, he doesn't just say things for the sake of it.

Brian.


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AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 618 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 47 of 77 (212622)
05-30-2005 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Buzsaw
05-30-2005 10:04 AM


Re: Child, you're new here ...
there should be some limit on total nonsense in Biblical interpretation.

Who gets to make the decision on what is nonsense? This is not an evangelical Xian only forum. It is a faith forum. If one member can make the statement "I believe that my faith is the only way, and this is why I believe that..." than so can any other member.

The limits in the science fora are for using science. The limits in the faith fora are for discussing beliefs.


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This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31635
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 48 of 77 (212631)
05-30-2005 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Buzsaw
05-30-2005 10:04 AM


Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
let's look at one.

I believe that as said in the Bible, one day everyone will stand before the Judgement Seat to be assigned into sheep or goats. As you stand in line waiting for Judgement you'll be able to look around. You'll notice that the Goats are almost ALL Christians. Oh, there may be the ocassional Non-Christian like Stalin or Pol Pot but they will be the exception, not the rule. Instead, you'll see the Goats consist of the Christian Bigots that supported oppression like the "Defense of Marriage Act" and other discriminatory legislation. The Goats will include those Christians that damaged kids by keeping them in ignorance by teaching YEC, or that the Flood happened. Hurting kids like that is something that will be hard to explain. The Goats will include all those Christians that opposed Abortion but didn't work to make it unnecessary by offering to adopt, love and cherish every unwanted child.

On the other side you'll see the Sheep. They will be almost all Non-Christians. They will be atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans and Druids. Oh, there will be the ocassional Christian there, but they will be the exception, not the rule. Trixie will be there, as will Arach. The Sheep will be those who actually tried to do their best even if they failed, those who really tried to love others as they love themselves.

Prophecy.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Thugpreacha, posted 05-30-2005 1:01 PM jar has responded
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2005 10:55 PM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13189
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 49 of 77 (212637)
05-30-2005 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
05-30-2005 12:07 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
Where does the prophecy say that most of the goats will be christians? While I agree that many who call themselves christian are not, I think that you are reading into this a bit. And i suppose that the sheep are all tree huggers who rolled up their sleeves and joined the peace corps! :rolleyes:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 05-30-2005 12:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31635
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 50 of 77 (212642)
05-30-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Thugpreacha
05-30-2005 1:01 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
If you read Matthew 25:31-46

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

all the world, in other words, everyone who is living or had ever lived, are gathered together. But the folk Jesus is speaking to, the ones that question his decision, are those that believed in him.

44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

These will be the Goats. The Goats will be believers in Christ for the most part but those who totally missed the message.

The message is really very simple, love GOD and love others as you love yourself.

And how do you Love GOD?

40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

PB writes:

And i suppose that the sheep are all tree huggers who rolled up their sleeves and joined the peace corps!

They will certainly be among the sheep, but only part of the sheep. The sheep will include everyone who opposed the "Defense of Marriage Act" and supported accepting homosexual lifestyles as normal, loving relationships, and opposed nonsense like Classic Creationism and encourage children to think, to challenge, to test and temper their faith.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 54 by Trixie, posted 05-30-2005 5:43 PM jar has responded
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lfen
Member (Idle past 2993 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 51 of 77 (212655)
05-30-2005 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
05-30-2005 1:14 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jar,

I'd like your take on that statement. The priest (Episcopal) that had the biggest impact on me when I was in the church as a youth didn't believe God put people in hell forever. I prefer the Mahayana Bodhisattva concept expressed in the vow to not enter nirvana until all sentient beings are saved.

lfen

edited a typo: beleive back to believe

This message has been edited by lfen, 05-30-2005 11:07 AM


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jar
Member
Posts: 31635
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 52 of 77 (212656)
05-30-2005 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by lfen
05-30-2005 2:05 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
I am somewhat ambivalent as to whether this is on topic or not. I guess it could be considered part of the "What's behind them" concept.

I don't really have a good answer. I know I had a migraine that lasted forever. "But I'm much better now." reference to which character in which TV series? I would hope that a loving GOD would never even consider eternal torment and that the statement was simple in there for emphasis. But it certainly is a possibility.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3122
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 53 of 77 (212667)
05-30-2005 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asteragros
05-23-2005 11:08 AM


Well, that is the Christian view of the prophecy. However, that is not the Jewish view of a prophecy. THe Jewish view is that a prophecy is a warning that Israel is drifting away from the word of god, and that there would be dire consequences. There might be 'signs' to show a prophecy is valid, but it is not a prediction of the future per say.

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Trixie
Member (Idle past 2022 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 54 of 77 (212699)
05-30-2005 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
05-30-2005 1:14 PM


Spot on, Jar!!!
This may be way off topic, but I had to post this. Jar, my man, you're absolutely spot on. In my opinion, this is one of the most important passages in the Bible and it's the whole message of Christ in a nutshell.

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jar
Member
Posts: 31635
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 55 of 77 (212706)
05-30-2005 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Trixie
05-30-2005 5:43 PM


Very OT
Trixie Pixie. Did you move?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 77 (212744)
05-30-2005 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
05-30-2005 12:07 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
let's look at one.
I believe that as said in the Bible, one day everyone will stand before the Judgement Seat to be assigned into sheep or goats. As you stand in line waiting for Judgement you'll be able to look around. You'll notice that the Goats are almost ALL Christians. Oh, there may be the ocassional Non-Christian like Stalin or Pol Pot but they will be the exception, not the rule. Instead, you'll see the Goats consist of the Christian Bigots that supported oppression like the "Defense of Marriage Act" and other discriminatory legislation. The Goats will include those Christians that damaged kids by keeping them in ignorance by teaching YEC, or that the Flood happened. Hurting kids like that is something that will be hard to explain. The Goats will include all those Christians that opposed Abortion but didn't work to make it unnecessary by offering to adopt, love and cherish every unwanted child.

On the other side you'll see the Sheep. They will be almost all Non-Christians. They will be atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans and Druids. Oh, there will be the ocassional Christian there, but they will be the exception, not the rule. Trixie will be there, as will Arach. The Sheep will be those who actually tried to do their best even if they failed, those who really tried to love others as they love themselves.

Jar, you show such ignorance of the NT that I really don't know where to start with you, but for a starter lets get it straight as to who, according to the NT makes it into Christ's/God's kingdome and who doesn't. Coupled with this let's get it straight as to what a Christian is according to the teachings of Christ himself and his apostles.

The word C H R I S T - - I A N has the word christ/messiah meaning the anointed one or the saviour within the word. This is the one prophesied by the OT prophets who would not only come to be the deliverer and saviour of the Jews, but the redeemer of the Gentiles also. A Christian is one who has received the christ/Jesus as saviour. John 1:12 "But as many as have received him (Jesus) to them he gave power to become the sons of God." Jesus himself said nobody would make it to the Father in Heaven except through him, according to John 14:6. So how are the list of folks you mentioned, the pagans and all going to get through when he himself said they can't except through him. I can give you a dozen other scriptures from Jesus and the apostles which basically say the same thing, and they aren't all in the Gospel of John. I believe it's in Matthew 10 where Jesus says he is the door of the sheepfold and knows his sheep and his sheep know him. He says anyone who comes in any other door but him, the door of the sheepfold is a thief and a robber. So both the "sheep" and the "brethren" are those who know and follow Jesus, plain and simple.

Now let's have a look at the Matthew 25 scripture you cited. Verse 40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." Done to whom? To his "brethren." Who do you think are the "brethren" of Jesus? The "brethren" of Jesus are none other than the Christians or Christ ones, his followers. You don't believe me? Go to Matthew 12:49 and there you read that Jesus refers to his desciples as his "brethren." Also in John 1:12 which I cited above you read that those who received him are referred to as "sons" of God. Guess what? If we who received Christ are "sons of God" and Jesus is the "Son of God" that makes us who received him as lord and saviour and him brethren.

So we see, that in Matthew 25 in this special judgement of the nations that these folks who Jesus then justifies are those who during the time of persecution of his "brethren," his followers the Christians, helped those persecuted Christians and those who were hungry and naked, i.e. his brethren.

There is, according to Jesus and the other NT prophets a time of great tribulation upon the Christians in the latter days. It has begun in many nations, i.e. the Muslim nations, primarily. It was raging big time last century in athiestic and secularistic Communist nations where those nations killed nearly a hundred million of their own citizens, many of who were Christians. It rages in Viet Nam, Cambodia and other Communist nations today. There are those who are helping these happles "brethren" of Jesus, people like the Voice of the Martyrs, Franklin Graham's Samaritan's purse, Hopegivers, and multitudes of others. There are also those who hate and persecute Christ's "brethren," but call on "Allah," calling him "Lord and God," all the while persecuting his/Jesus's "brethren." During the "dark ages" it was the popes and bishops of Rome who where persecuting the Christians who refused to submit to their authority and there were also then many who harbored and helped the persecuted of Christ's true "brethren."


The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

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jar
Member
Posts: 31635
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 57 of 77 (212746)
05-30-2005 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Buzsaw
05-30-2005 10:55 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
Yes, as I said, most Goats read it that way.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2005 10:55 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 77 (212748)
05-30-2005 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by jar
05-30-2005 10:57 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
Yes, as I said, most Goats read it that way.

I've taken an hour to tell you what the context says. Do what you want with it, but don't expect me to take the time to respond to all your nonsense.


The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 05-30-2005 10:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 05-30-2005 11:11 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31635
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 59 of 77 (212749)
05-30-2005 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Buzsaw
05-30-2005 11:01 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
I'm sorry you wasted an hour when the message is really so simple.

Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.

How do you love GOD? By trying to do your best.

Those who teach and preach exclusion, bigotry, hate, fear and ignorance are the Goats.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Buzsaw, posted 05-30-2005 11:01 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 77 (212754)
05-31-2005 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
05-30-2005 11:11 PM


Re: Since this thread is about God's Prophecies ...
Those who teach and preach exclusion, bigotry, hate, fear and ignorance are the Goats.

It was Jesus who clearly taught exclusion as I have shown by the scriptures. Aren't you implying then that he was a hateful fearful and ignorant goat?


The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 05-30-2005 11:11 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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