Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Uncreated Creator Argument
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 27 of 80 (506142)
04-23-2009 4:22 AM


something has to be the uncaused cause.
The key here is to understand that God is outside of space-time, and is therefore not necessarily influenced by the physical laws he set in motion for the effective running of the universe as AIG has suggested. But as I understand it something that will at some point conk out or cease to exist could not have always existed. This is only logical, to propose that the universe has always existed is to connote that it is eternal, but we know that the universe isn't eternal because it will someday run down, my question here is when did the universe stop being eternal if it previously existed eternally.
A second point is time time is involved in the conception of something, thus the phrase zero hour, to prove my point without time earth wouldn't have had a history, and history is a record of everything that came into existence and went out of existence and all of this happened with time. Things also run down with time or improve with time. Time is one piece of the puzzle.
Question is will the physical laws still operate if time were to stop suddenly, would gravity still function, or will it pause for a while, will energy laws take a break or continue functioning? What we can expect if time suddenly stops is there won't be any more changing until it resumes, everything will remain in the state it was when time stopped, so in a sense the laws will also stop working temporarily, because the laws are linked up with change.
Now according to the bible there is no time in heaven, no night or day, so it is not reasonable to say that God is a slave to gravity as we are or that he can age? Without time the physical laws cannot function. Also time-keeping suggest that there had to be a zero hour for time itself, time had to start somewhere; there must have been point when time was 0. I cannot imagine an infinite time i.e. time that never had a start.
Another key factor for something to start to exist is a cause, the launcher, or the starter. AiG declares that God is the uncaused caused who caused everything, is this claim reasonable though? Let’s compare it against its counterargument that states that God was caused by another God that was himself caused by an earlier God and so on giving us an infinite string of gods coming and going out of existence. If this is the reasoning then it means that Yahweh the current God will at some point in the future also go out of existence, but not before he creates another Yahweh who will take over from him.
But hold on this sort of reasoning causes a great deal of difficulty, in keeping with the bible’s testimony of God God is outside of Space-time, making him eternal, eternal means continuing forever or indefinitely. In this case God is never going to cease existing, making it impossible for the next God to take over from him. The previous god’s in this case may also have been eternal, why must we reason that they were subject to extinction, when the current god isn’t. All in all the first position that God is uncreated makes more sense and is much more believable than the counter position which holds that God is only one in a long chain of gods leading up to him.
Now I have pointed out that if not a cause both time and cause are necessary for something to begin existing, God has to be the uncaused cause this makes good sense as infinite regress of Gods cannot be accommodated for the mere reason that we are simply taking the problem one step backwards, the question then has to be asked and answered, how did the very first God come into existence, the very very first one , which appears at the beginning of the god chain, who or what made him or it. We can’t escape this dilemma; we will have to agree to an uncaused cause at some point. The universe cannot be this uncaused cause, because the universe is physical for starters and matter cannot just start to exits by itself. Energy cannot be created or destroyed and energy=matter.

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Larni, posted 04-23-2009 8:32 AM Cedre has not replied
 Message 30 by Phage0070, posted 04-23-2009 9:50 AM Cedre has replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 31 of 80 (506158)
04-23-2009 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phage0070
04-23-2009 9:50 AM


Re: something has to be the uncaused cause.
Your train of thought is flawed.
Demonstrate where it is flawed, I give you permission.
It is not logical to conclude that something which has an end cannot always have existed.
What the! Were you excited when you made this statement? How can something that has always existed have an end, something that has an end must have a beginning because the second you claim that it has always existed your ascribing it the property of being eternal. According to what you are saying something could eternally exist and at the same time not be eternal. When something has always existed it has existed eternally. Sir/Miss your kind of reasoning will only end in a huge throbbing headache.
Let’s analyze the claim you have made above. For instance, for how long has the universe existed already? If you give me a number then it means that the universe had a point of conception because it has an age, something can only have an age if it had a birthday. Secondly if your answer is it must have always existed, then you are suggesting that the universe has eternally existed, and if something has eternally existed it is not subject to extinction or running down for the reason that it is eternal. You cannot escape the logic this argument is founded on sorry.
Cedre writes:
A second point is time time is involved in the conception of something, thus the phrase zero hour, to prove my point without time earth wouldn't have had a history, and history is a record of everything that came into existence and went out of existence and all of this happened with time. Things also run down with time or improve with time. Time is one piece of the puzzle.
You seem very confused here, I am wondering if you have a lucid and coherent point on this subject.[/qs]
What the! For a second time. What is wrong with my reasoning here, history only exists because time exists; you and I are currently making history, your every last action is part history, and guess what without time none of the above would be happening. This words that I’m typing onto the screen are being formed in time, without time this would be impossible.
This is a completely subjective decision on your part. The laws do not stop functioning, they are simply never applied. Nothing about time stopping makes gravity stop working, it just means that there is no other time frame in which to see how it alters processes. Gravitational lensing and spatial distortion would still be in effect when viewing a static system.
If they are not applied then they are not taking place, and if they are not taking place they aren’t functioning. By not functioning I’m not saying that the laws have broken down, I simply mean that they have been paused. Let us suppose that shortly after chucking a chair at someone who has offended time stops, will that chair pause in midway or complete its course. The answer is a simple no; the chair will pause in midair because for a change in position to occur time is essential.
2: Without time the physical laws cannot function. We already went over this above, but stopping time also leads to other issues. For instance, you would not be able to do anything in heaven. This prevents angles from singing, God from talking, being kind, etc.. and you from thinking or perceiving anything at all. Other critical plot points become impossible, such as how do you explain Lucifer being cast out of a place that is incompatible with action or history?
You are basically guessing what will happen. In any case as I have mentioned the physical laws do not have to apply to God and his surrounding, he made the laws surely he wasn’t stuck in just one position before he made them. Plus according to what the bible says God is spirit and heaven is a spiritual location, therefore you cannot make the above assertions as you do not know on what laws the spirit realm operates, for example it has been said that angels travel at the speed of thought, I don’t know if this is true, but if it is true it illustrates that the spirit world operates differently, also spirit beings can travel through obstructions like walls and the like as was demonstrated by Jesus shortly after his resurrection. From this too examples it would be clear to anyone that the laws that govern us are not the same laws that govern the spirit realm.
The universe does not care how stupid you are, it worked before you were born and will work after you die, regardless of your ability to understand why.
Look at that you’re getting too personal, calm down man, this isn’t the Jerry Springer Show; here we do things in a civilized manner so latch onto your decorum.
I may not share his viewpoints in other areas but this particular failing leads me to believe Cedre is dangerously insane.
Wow some people are just not built for debates they turn onto the debater when debater disagrees with them.
Such is my concern about religion; there is nothing wrong about the practice itself, but it indicates a deep mental malformation which concerns me from a societal standpoint.
Actually, the position that makes the most sense is that you are a loony which is why neither of your ideas make any sense.
Huh! This guy has really convinced himself that he is a guest on the Springer Show, have a look at all those insults gushing forth from his mouth.
Who says, you and your ancient book? Besides if you are willing to accept something always existing then why not accept that matter and energy always existed? That way you get around the whole conservation law, and you don’t need to make up magic sky wizards.
I think you need to undergo a physics module, or if you already have then you need to revisit your class notes.
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phage0070, posted 04-23-2009 9:50 AM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phage0070, posted 04-23-2009 12:23 PM Cedre has not replied
 Message 34 by Perdition, posted 04-23-2009 5:08 PM Cedre has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024