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Author Topic:   Sacrifice
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 64 (492793)
01-02-2009 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
01-02-2009 7:08 PM


Straggler writes:
1) What exactly was sacrificed? - Sacrifice normally implies loss or denial of some sort. I am not clear as to what exactly it is that was sacrificed or lost by God as a result of the physical death of his son? If I were to physically sacrifice my son, for example, the gaping void in my life caused by his absence and the knowledge that I would never again be with him would indeed probably be more painful than I can imagine. That would indeed be a sacrifice on my part. However in the case of Jesus a place at God's side in heaven was presumably guaranteed. Surely death in this instance was more of a homecoming than a loss of any sort at all?
Hi Straggler. Happy New Year! Your understanding of the doctrine is correct as per the fundamentals of scripture on this.
1. The OT animal sacrifices for the sins of humans involved a monetary loss to the humans offering. Those sacrifices sufficed until the once for all perfect sacrifice of God's son was accomplished. This effected a transfer of energy from Heaven to earth, from heaven to earth, so Heaven gave up something for the sins of men on earth.
2. Jesus, the sacrifice suffered an extraordinary suffering of pain and death, a penalty only attributed to earth man, so Jesus paid dearly for our sins. He paid dearly also in that he left a prefect splendorous abode to be a rugged earth man deprived of a home and sleeping in places like the wilderness all the while continually evading men who wanted him dead. He left Heavenly bliss to pay this penalty.
3. It's a big deal because he, being a deity humbled himself to the status of the mortal creature.
4. God and Jesus knew that by doing this the creature's sin would be paid for and the creature could become sons of God somewhat like Jesus.
5. Yes he was raised up but that doesn't diminish the fact that he died a physical death and for the time he was on the cross God actually forsook him as is to turn his back on his son and disown him while he was being made sin for us on the cross. Thus Jesus cried, "My God, why have you forsaken me?" This was a terrible thing for him to have to do. We humans would be hard pressed to fully understand that anguish!
Straggler writes:
4. Why sacrifice? - Why was any of this sacrifice stuff even necessary? If God wants to give man an opportunity for salvation, the opportunity to repent for his 'original sin', then surely he can just do this without any need for the whole sacrifice thing. Why the convulted and unnecessarily brutal path to redemption? If any sacrifice has actually been made why was any of it necessary in the first place?
So I am basically suggesting that the crucifixion of Christ was not a sacrifice of any particular substance and that if there was a sacrifice of any sort it was all very unnecessary anyway.
I remember asking this very question at about age 9 to my friend as we walked to school one day. A year or so at about age 10, I began to understand why and received him as my personal savior.
1. The sacrifice was declared necessary in Genesis when God told Adam that if he sinned, i.e. took the forbidden fruit, that day he would die.. Did Adam die a physical death the day he partook? No. Adam lost his immortality, lost his spiritual status with God, and began to age and die.
2. So what did God do for Adam's dilemma? He killed an animal and clothed him. He also instituted the animal sacrifice to cover the man until the ultimate final and perfect sacrifice, Jesus paid the once and for all price which satisfied God's justice..
3. When Jesus died on the cross, the heavy veil between the people and the Holy Place where the Arch Of the Covenant were was torn open from the top to the bottom by God Why? because the animal sacrifice Levitical priesthood ended with the Jesus sacrifice. Thus the temple was soon destroyed and the priesthood with it never to be installed again. Now Jesus is our high priest, the sacrifice and the resurrection of us to be forever reconciled back to God's kingdom, redeemed/ransom us from the death curse pronounced by God upon mankind in the Garden of Eden.
4. This is why Jesus could authoritatively insist that he was the door to God and the only way, the truth and the life, no man coming to God but by him. This is also why, in order to get through to God with out prayers Jesus instructed us to pray through him (high priest) to the Father/God. Thus we fundamentalists should end every prayer with "in the name of Jesus we pray."
PRAISE GOD FROM WHOM ALL BLESSINGS AND SALVATION COMES!!! :cool;

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 01-02-2009 7:08 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Straggler, posted 01-03-2009 8:32 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 64 (492843)
01-03-2009 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Straggler
01-03-2009 8:32 AM


Re: Why Sacrifice?
Straggler, I have to leave for church now and plan to address your points more in depth later. For now, I agree with ICant that God will not sacrifice justice for convenience. He has eternal social as well as scientific established laws in his universe and justice is one of those socialistic laws which had to be considered relative to the solution to evil.
May God bless you and enlighten you in your quest for truth!

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Straggler, posted 01-03-2009 8:32 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Straggler, posted 01-04-2009 5:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 64 (492880)
01-03-2009 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taz
01-03-2009 9:47 AM


Re: Why Sacrifice?
Taz writes:
In my college days, I did a project on methods of tortures the ancients were able to come up with. It will amaze most people nowadays how long a person can be kept alive in agonizing pain, like a thousand times worse than what jesus supposedly went through. We're talking about days to weeks here, not hours. The christians themselves had plenty of ways to torture people that lasted for days and weeks before killing them.
But Jesus, immortal deity willingly sacrificed himself on the alter of a humiliating torture, pain and death who knew he would never have otherwise experienced death pain and lonely forsakeness by God for the sole purpose of ransoming millions of his own inferiors, expendable creatures of God, from the curse of death? We're talking apples and oranges here, so to speak.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Taz, posted 01-03-2009 9:47 AM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Straggler, posted 01-06-2009 10:11 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 64 (493042)
01-05-2009 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Straggler
01-04-2009 5:09 PM


Re: Sacrifice & Truth
Straggler writes:
Instead I have advocated that if there are choices of ultimate importance to be made be men then the opportunity for informed choices should be given to all equally. Relying on faith, which is open to deceit, delusion and misuse is a particularly poor method of achieving the stated aim of getting men to make the preferred and informed choice of their own accord.
1. But there was a period of time after the flood when (abe: the entire global population of) 8 persons all had the knowledge of the truth and thus equal opportunity. Though God warned that if the fathers did not teach and warn the children etc that truth would be lost and the descendents would suffer the consequences, void of the blessings of God.
"My people are destroyed for the lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge I will also reject you......I will also forget your children." Hosea 4:6 OT
Romans 1:21: ......when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; b became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22: Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools...24: Therefore God also gave them up to to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves; 25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator.
Example: The American dream via of the blessings of God/Jehovah, the Biblical god because Biblical truth, from which blessings originate, wanes down through the generations.
2. We Biblical fundamentalists have no reason whatsoever to rely on blind faith. Biblical faith is established on fulfilled prophecy, archeology, social benefits and personal experience.
The Bible is unique. No other religious book has this. All others rely on blind faith with nothing substantial to base the faith on.
Even the sacrificial crucifixion of Jesus on the cross was not expected by Jehovah to be a blind faith event to believe in. Jesus and the apostles continually, throughout their ministries to quote and cite OT prophecies to verify that this event was fulfillment of prophecy. Isaiah 58 and other verses in Isaiah as well as those in Psalms, Daniel and others were significant relative to substantiating the event of the messianic sacrificial redemption from sins before the messianic rule of messiah would happen. Thus Jesus effected salvation to, not only the messianic Jewish nation, but to all nations including Gentiles who will share in that messianic era emerging upon us as events come in place for the 2nd advent of the sacrificial messiah as world ruler on MT Zion, the Temple Mount.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Add phrase as indicated

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Straggler, posted 01-04-2009 5:09 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by kjsimons, posted 01-05-2009 2:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 01-06-2009 7:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 64 (493181)
01-06-2009 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Straggler
01-06-2009 7:38 AM


Re: Sacrifice & Truth
Straggler writes:
I have asked Iano and I will ask you too: Did Jesus have freewill?
How can freewill be compatible with prophecy? And if Jesus did not have freewill it must somewhat dampen the the reverence with which we should view his sacrifice. No?
For sure, Jesus had freewill, as does God himself. Satan knew that so Satan tempted him. Jesus's mind was/is the essence of his father, Jehovah. Jesus and Jehovah, his father shared one spirit, the Holy Spirit. Unlike Satan, there was nothing in his thinking which would interest him in opposing anything relative to his father, God/Jehovah.
Prophecy is foreknowledge, not fore-establishment; foreknowledge of what man would do and foreknowledge of what God's response to man's actions would be.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Straggler, posted 01-06-2009 7:38 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Straggler, posted 01-07-2009 6:41 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 64 (493244)
01-07-2009 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by iano
01-07-2009 6:37 AM


Re: ..cont
Iano writes:
Jesus on the cross was a God....
Mmmm, no. Jesus was/is the son of the supreme majesty/god Jehovah, the one and only god of the universe sent to earth by his heavenly father, Jehovah whom he addressed as his god as he hung on the cross relative to the moments of being forsaken by God.
Jehovah, God, father of Jesus occupied the throne of Heaven as the sin offering for man's sins, i.e. Jesus was paying the sin death penalty upon the cross on earth.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by iano, posted 01-07-2009 6:37 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Rahvin, posted 01-07-2009 3:52 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 46 by iano, posted 01-07-2009 5:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 64 (493279)
01-07-2009 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Rahvin
01-07-2009 3:52 PM


Re: Trinity And Sacrifice
Rahvin writes:
How does this hold with the Trinity belief that "God" encompasses the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, meaning that Jesus is God?
I believe in the Trinity of one god, Jehovah, the head of the Trinity, one son of the Biblical god, Jehovah, Jesus Christ and one spirit which both share, i.e. the multipresent Holy Spirit of the father and the son. It is the multipresent Holy Spirit that is in both the father and the son which makes them one, i.e. the three in one
Rahvn writes:
Or do you not believe in the Trinity that way? It's hard to keep all of the particular beliefs of all denominations of Christianity down. I was raised in Congregtional/Prebyterian/Christian Reformed churches, but didn't have any real experience with all of the other thousands of Christian varieties. I know that many of them have differing views about things even so major as the Trinity.
You're right. There are a variety of views about the Trinity. Most do not even try to understand what they say they believe, including the pastors and teachers. I find the only way to understand it is to keep it simple and literal. Jesus always referred to God as his god or his father. In John 14 in one of the earlier verses he says he and his father are one. Then towards the end of the chapter he says his father is greater than he. He speaks of the Holy Spirit as what makes Christians and he one with the father, i.e. one spirit.
The apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, I think about verse 52 or so Paul says after Jesus puts all adversaries of God under his feet that he will again become subject to God. Sons are always subject to the fathers, Biblically speaking.
Having said the above, for sure, Jesus is deity and worthy of worship. He never forbade anyone to worship him as some did when he was on earth. God has ordained him to become the supreme majesty/lord of planet earth at his soon to come 2nd advent when he destroys the armies of the world and sets up shop/his kingdom.
I've tried to explain this relative to the topic in that contrary to what we hear so often in pulpits GOD DID NOT COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN AND DIE ON THE CROSS AS A SACRIFICE FOR SIN. GOD, JEHOVAH, FROM HIS THRONE IN HEAVEN SENT HIS ONLY BORN/BEGOTTEN SON JESUS VIA THE VIRGIN BIRTH, BORN OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DO THAT. See John 3:16
There is a chain of command established by God. Paul says God is head of Jesus, Jesus head of the man and man head of the woman. See I Corinthians 11:3
This is not to claim I understand in deb th all about the Trinity. I do not. Nevertheless, we have been given data throughout scripture that informs us much that we can comprehend.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Rahvin, posted 01-07-2009 3:52 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 64 (493280)
01-07-2009 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Straggler
01-07-2009 6:41 PM


Re: Sacrifice & Truth
However you must admit that combining the concept of freewill and the concept of foretold predetermined futures raises some interesting questions and possible paradoxes.
Straggler, you keep thinking in terms like predetermined. When you begin to understand in terms like forknown, it all makes sense. Jehovah, god, is omniscient, i.e. all knowing.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Straggler, posted 01-07-2009 6:41 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Straggler, posted 01-08-2009 9:46 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 64 (493336)
01-08-2009 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Straggler
01-07-2009 6:41 PM


Re: Sacrifice & Truth
Straggler writes:
Can man use his freewill such that biblical prophecy can be avoided?
If the future is known, and therefore fixed, can man truly exhibit freewill?
If freewill is not the ability to choose between alternate futures then what is it?
As Bailey has hit on, prophecy is relative to global and national events. The individuals within the nations are benefited in that knowing the future they can know who wins and who looses. This knowledge allows them the advantage over the ignorant individuals of going with the winners.
For example, Christians who refuse to take the mark or number of the emerging global regime in their right hand or forehead will be denied the right to buy and sell, but they will be resurrected to rule and reign with Jesus, messiah, in the blissful messianic kingdom.
Because of the raging warfare between good and evil, Christians are forewarned that they will suffer as Jesus and the apostles suffered. We have the knowledge to avoid receiving a mark in our bodies to buy or sell so as to avoid the consequences of doing so, which are the plagues of God's wrath listed in Revelation 16.
Muslims like the son of one of the Hammas founders, recent convert to Christianity, at the risk of death as per the Fox story last weekend, exercised the choice to face death to gain the blessings of the resurrection and eternal life. He made that free will individual choice based on prophecy.
The above cited prophecies are not actions of God. They are actions of evil regimes which were foreknown by God. Evil regimes and individuals are inspired an driven by Satan. God, in his foreknowledge shares that knowledge with individuals who read it so as for the individuals to make personal judgments as to what action they will take and which way they choose to go. That is free will based on knowledge.
Edited by Buzsaw, : minor fix

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Straggler, posted 01-07-2009 6:41 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Straggler, posted 01-09-2009 10:48 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 64 (493603)
01-09-2009 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Straggler
01-09-2009 10:48 AM


Re: Destined to Armageddon.
We are all destined to Armeggadon.
I agree. According to the foreknowledge of God, the nations will have issues with Israel's right to the land and will invade the land to drive out the Jews. Bordering nations to Israel will claim that land as theirs, i.e. claiming two lands as theirs as per the prophets.
According to the foreknowledge of God the above events will be at a time when a world government has emerged into reality with power over all nations, tribes and tongues.
According to the foreknowledge of God the above events will be at a time when the races mingle with one another, i.e. integration of the races as per the prophet Daniel (chapter 7?)
According to the foreknowledge of God, the gospel of salvation, i.e. sacrificial redemption will be preached world wide, and according to Revelation 7, perhaps via satellite, i.e. an angel/messenger "flying in the midst of heaven."
Get the picture, Straggler, it pretty much all began to escalate by man at the Industrial Revolution as per man's free will.
This is not to say that God didn't have a role as per the timing, etc. Perhaps the Tower Of Babel event, confusing and scattering the languages/races was to slow Armageddon down for a few millenniums.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Straggler, posted 01-09-2009 10:48 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Straggler, posted 01-10-2009 11:21 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 64 (494430)
01-15-2009 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Straggler
01-10-2009 11:21 AM


Re: Destined to Armageddon.
Straggler writes:
Is it possible for man to exert his freewill and decide not to create such a government?
Or not?
In most cases nothing God would do would prevent man from exercising his free will. It's just that God foreknows how man will exercise his free will.
He did harden Pharoah's heart at the Exodus because he knew Pharoah had evil designs against God's people so Pharoah and his army had to be eliminated. Otherwise, Egypt would be a continuous burden to Israel relative to establishing a kingdom in the land of Caanan, which would eventually become the planet's messianic kingdom; God's kingdom on earth.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Straggler, posted 01-10-2009 11:21 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Straggler, posted 01-18-2009 12:27 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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