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Author Topic:   the book of job, and an unjust god
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 166 of 181 (171440)
12-25-2004 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by berberry
12-20-2004 8:28 PM


berberry writes:
...some other Christians insist that the bible is inerrant, and if that's the case then it would seem to me that indeed God is no better than Hitler. Thus the question depends on your position regarding biblical innerancy. Remember, the passage I cited states explicitly that God ordered the slaughter of the Amalekites.
Biblical inerrency is a dicey topic. I believe the Bible to be more than a book, in that it contains lessons, situations of moral ethics, and is mean't to be taken in a literal context of the time it is read, the morals and beliefs of those reading it, and a sort of interactive synthesis with the Living Spirit. If it is read strictly from a position of absolute inerrency, the logic and meaning break down. If it is read to further clarify or substantiate a lesson in morality, humanity, theology, and spirituality, transformation and clarification do in fact follow IF the reader is seeking a communion with the Spirit of God. If, however, the reader is objective, rational, and not prone to surrender of feeling and intellect, the book stands out as mere words on a page.
The book of Job has some real and deep meanings for everyday life for those who seek to include a personal relationship with God as part of their life. So what is the difference between God and the concept of fate? Nothing, if you don't see the difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by berberry, posted 12-20-2004 8:28 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 181 (171550)
12-26-2004 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by arachnophilia
12-25-2004 12:33 AM


quote:
How was the the Pharaoh's heart hardened?
Was it not his own sin that caused this hardness?
quote:
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart
thank you come again.

1 Samuel 6:6:
6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
Psalm 95:6-11:
6 O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker.
7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. Today if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your heart,
as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.
Mark 8:14-18:
14 Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
Are you beginning to understand?
How does someone harden their heart?
By refusing to listen and insisting on having things their way.
Zechariah 7:7-14:
7 Should ye not hear the words which the LORD hath cried by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, when men inhabited the south and the plain?
8 And the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah, saying,
9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:
10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.
11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone,
lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.
13 Therefore it is come to pass, that as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:
14 But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. Thus the land was desolate after them, that no man passed through nor returned: for they laid the pleasant land desolate.
What part does God play in this?
Romans 1:21-32:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
At some point, after continually refusing to listen to God, insisting on having your own way, persisting in your life of sin, God will give you over to it. He, in effect, grants you what you want.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by arachnophilia, posted 12-25-2004 12:33 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by jar, posted 12-26-2004 12:04 PM dpardo has not replied
 Message 171 by arachnophilia, posted 12-27-2004 1:33 AM dpardo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 170 of 181 (171557)
12-26-2004 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by dpardo
12-26-2004 11:08 AM


Are you beginning to understand?
How does someone harden their heart?
By refusing to listen and insisting on having things their way.
Actually, that doesn't seem to be the case.
If you read Exodus the poor Pharaoh got played just like a rube at a carny. It was just like Job.
The Pharaoh never hardened his heart until GOD told him to do so, nor did he refuse to listen. In fact, to create the literary tension, move the plot along and keep folk from falling asleep, GOD had to "Harden Pharaohs heart". The Pharaoh had no problem with the Hebrews leaving but that wouldn't have been much box office. So, to get the gate up they had to figure a way to get in the great chase scene and the way to do that was by GOD working over the poor Pharaoh.
And what did the Pharaoh get for listening to GOD?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by dpardo, posted 12-26-2004 11:08 AM dpardo has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 171 of 181 (171648)
12-27-2004 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by dpardo
12-26-2004 11:08 AM


1 Samuel 6:6:
Psalm 95:6-11:
Mark 8:14-18:
Zechariah 7:7-14:
Romans 1:21-32:
what's the problem with these verses?
THEY'RE NOT IN THE BOOK OF EXODUS.
quote:
exodus 10:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh:
for I have hardened his heart
now, are we still having problems reading this verse? god said to moses "i'm manipulating pharoah's emotions." let's read further:
quote:
Exdodus 10:16,17
Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, "I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you. Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from me this death only."
after moses recalls the plague:
quote:
Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
this happens TEN TIMES. every time, pharoah is ready to let the hebrews go, and everytime god hardens his heart. this covers, if memory serves, chapters 7 through 11 of the book of exodus. you can pick any passage and look at it, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM say that god manipulated pharoah, and "hardened his heart" not that pharoah himself did.
By refusing to listen and insisting on having things their way.
no, that would be you, sir. to harden one's heart means to stifle compassion. it's what you do when you see a homeless guy and don't want to help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by dpardo, posted 12-26-2004 11:08 AM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 12-27-2004 10:20 AM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 176 by dpardo, posted 12-27-2004 10:55 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 181 (171658)
12-27-2004 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
12-25-2004 10:16 AM


Phatboy responds to me:
quote:
Biblical inerrency is a dicey topic.
Maybe for you, but for me there's no question; the bible is NOT inerrant.
quote:
I believe the Bible to be more than a book, in that it contains lessons, situations of moral ethics, and is mean't to be taken in a literal context of the time it is read...
Whoa! I'm with you on the "more than a book" part since I should think that any Christian, liberal or conservatibe, would consider the bible to have some sort of quality not to be found in other books. But when I get to "is meant to be taken in a literal context of the time it is read" I wonder what the word 'literal' is doing there. Your wording suggests that you take the bible not literally but in the context of the time at which it was written. Is that true?
quote:
The book of Job has some real and deep meanings for everyday life for those who seek to include a personal relationship with God as part of their life.
But I don't see it that way. The story of Job is very unsettling to me. You focus on the behavior of Job, no doubt, but I focus on the behavior of God, and His behavior is reprehensible.
The OT is replete with examples of God's wrath and contempt for mankind. It might have been impressive to the barbarians it was intended to strike fear into, but it is only impressive for all the wrong reasons to me. If all this stuff is true then why the hell is God worthy of worship?
If you want to make the case that God is a good guy to me, then you'll have to be willing to drop the OT entirely along with most of the NT. Only the direct teachings of Jesus (and even then only, shall we say, after a fashion) are worthy of any sort of praise. The rest of the bible is valuable (and indeed priceless) as a historical record and as literature, but not as a moral guide.
Perhaps this should be a topic of its own, but it seems to me that 90% of all fundamentalist Chrstians are far more interested in imposing their own interpretation of Mosaic nonsense and Paul's intolerant rants onto other people than they are in following Jesus themselves. How many of them ever read Matthew 6 or 7, or Luke 6 (to name only a few of the good teachings of Jesus) and seriously try to live by those words? How many of them really want marriage to be as Jesus defines it in Mark 10 or Matthew 19?

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 12-25-2004 10:16 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 173 of 181 (171664)
12-27-2004 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by berberry
12-27-2004 2:57 AM


Maybe for you, but for me there's no question; the bible is NOT inerrant.
i've found lots of errors, myself. you'd think that would solve the issue, wouldn't you? but no... i think the people who claim inerrency have never actually studied the bible. i doubt most have read very much of it either.
Whoa! I'm with you on the "more than a book" part since I should think that any Christian, liberal or conservatibe, would consider the bible to have some sort of quality not to be found in other books.
funny, i don't really. i just happen to subscribe to similar beliefs. i find it roughly equivalent to any other collection of literature from similar time-periods. a little more meanigful in some areas, and a little less in other (like numbers. ugh)
But I don't see it that way. The story of Job is very unsettling to me. You focus on the behavior of Job, no doubt, but I focus on the behavior of God, and His behavior is reprehensible.
mmmmm, on topic.
ironically, i don't totally agree. i don't think his behaviour is reprehensible because that would imply that he is held to the same moralistic standards that we are, which is exactly the opposite of what i'm trying to demonstrate. god's actions are quite out of what we would call moral though, yes.
The OT is replete with examples of God's wrath and contempt for mankind. It might have been impressive to the barbarians it was intended to strike fear into, but it is only impressive for all the wrong reasons to me. If all this stuff is true then why the hell is God worthy of worship?
because the bible also records instances of his love, caring, and compassion, well before the new testament. christians treat god as a static, one-sided character, and have to ignore large portions of their own book to do so.
the bible's portrait of god is by thousands of different authors, recording the full gamut of human ideas of this sort of god. it's broad and varied and changing from book to book, and sometimes verse to verse. but more importantly, it's incredibly disjoint and contradictory. what we have is not at all an accuracte portrayal of god. it's not a photograph, it's the impressions of many, many different people.
i don't think god is worthy of worship by his actions. i don't think god is justified by his actions, rather the other way around. i think his actions are justified because i believe in god. blatantly a religious choice, and not really one i'm interested in debating. it all basically boils down to that, really. you can't believe or disbelieve in god because his actions. you can choose to follow or not follow based on a spurious record of his actions, but belief is something else entirely.
also, i suspect job to be a work of fiction. that would make this particular instance of justification for the actions of god kind of moot, since it never really happened. rather, we should be asking what the author is trying to say about god. i don't think it's "god sucks, don't have faith," but more of a way of addressing that concern. it starts with the premise that bad things happen to good people, and then follows from there.
does it have an answer?
If you want to make the case that God is a good guy to me, then you'll have to be willing to drop the OT entirely along with most of the NT.
"the lord is my shepard;
i shall not want.
he makes my lay down in green pastures..."
there's a lot of really beautiful stuff in psalms, among other places. some of the ot barely even talks about god. ruth doesn't say much at all, and neither does esther. song of solomon doesn't even talk about god AT ALL. can we keep those?
Only the direct teachings of Jesus (and even then only, shall we say, after a fashion) are worthy of any sort of praise. The rest of the bible is valuable (and indeed priceless) as a historical record and as literature, but not as a moral guide.
kind of depends on how it's read. but yeah, i'm with you that a lot of the "moralistic" teachings in the ot make little sense today. (did they then?)
Perhaps this should be a topic of its own, but it seems to me that 90% of all fundamentalist Chrstians are far more interested in imposing their own interpretation of Mosaic nonsense and Paul's intolerant rants onto other people than they are in following Jesus themselves.
agreed. christ was a cool guy, too bad christianity has very little to do with him.
How many of them ever read Matthew 6 or 7, or Luke 6 (to name only a few of the good teachings of Jesus) and seriously try to live by those words?
matthew 6 actually contains my favourite passage in the new testament:
quote:
Matthew 6:5,6:
"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the stree corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly i say to you, they have their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."
this passage has not only influenced my belief, but has probably ruined a relationship. i had a christian girlfriend for a little while, still good friends. but she couldn't understand why i couldn't share my faith with her, and why i wouldn't pray with her, and why her church made me itch.
i've been to too many christian churches where it's all about the show. and it disgusts me. because i've read what jesus said, and that's not it.
How many of them really want marriage to be as Jesus defines it in Mark 10 or Matthew 19?
i suggested to a few people that while we're outlawing gay marriage, we should also punish divorce with execution. they thought i was crazy, but i quoted mark 10, and leviticus, and explained that if we're going to go for a biblical definition of marriage, this is it.
but between you and me, that was grossly perverting the text. jesus spoke in personal precepts, not laws. he wasn't saying we should stone divorcees, but that people should take marriage seriously and try to make it work, instead of throwing away serious commitments. but this is philosophy and religion -- NOT legislation. and it should stay that way.
if there's anything i will defend more ferociously than my religion, it's my civil liberties.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-27-2004 05:30 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by berberry, posted 12-27-2004 2:57 AM berberry has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 174 of 181 (171666)
12-27-2004 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by dpardo
12-22-2004 7:19 PM


There is only one decalogue (set of 10 commandments).
agree, but you seem to be mistaken as to what they are. here's the only instance the phrase "ten commandments" in the book of exodus:
quote:
Exd 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
look at that. chapter 34.
as for the mosaic covenant (and it is a covenant, terms of agreement, actually) there are anywhere between 9 and 17 terms that israelites must follow, depending on how you count. and believe me, different groups count them differently, even though most christian groups divide them into ten.

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 175 of 181 (171696)
12-27-2004 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by arachnophilia
12-27-2004 1:33 AM


arachnophilia writes:
this happens TEN TIMES. every time, pharoah is ready to let the hebrews go, and everytime god hardens his heart. this covers, if memory serves, chapters 7 through 11 of the book of exodus. you can pick any passage and look at it, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM say that god manipulated pharoah, and "hardened his heart" not that pharoah himself did.
Ex 7:1-5
7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."
Now, does Moses actually become God? No. Moses has the Spirit of the Creator as his authority. Pharoah, sensing that this Moses is representing an authority greater than himself, becomes stubborn.
Ex 7:8-13
8 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 9 "When Pharaoh says to you, 'Perform a miracle,' then say to Aaron, 'Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh,' and it will become a snake."
10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.
Pharoah tries to be "the man" in charge. He is outdone by these guys who are simple men compared to him. He even has sorcerers and magicians. Nobody can outdo the Spirit of God, however. Pharoah realizes that he is NOT the man(spirit)in charge and becomes angry.
The true One in charge did nothing to Pharoah except put him in his place by being there. God did not manipulate Pharoah. God simply showed it like it is.
1) I am.
2) You ain't.
Ex 7:14-18
14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is unyielding; he refuses to let the people go. 15 Go to Pharaoh in the morning as he goes out to the water. Wait on the bank of the Nile to meet him, and take in your hand the staff that was changed into a snake. 16 Then say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert. But until now you have not listened. 17 This is what the LORD says: By this you will know that I am the LORD: With the staff that is in my hand I will strike the water of the Nile, and it will be changed into blood. 18 The fish in the Nile will die, and the river will stink; the Egyptians will not be able to drink its water.'"
Now at first glance, THIS looks cruel. God is allowing the Egyptian people to suffer. Why? Perhaps because they trust their own wisdom and tradition and will not listen to Him? Yeah I know...it DOES seem excessive. Hey, how you gonna argue with the Creator? It works, though.
Ex 8:8-Pharaoh summoned Moses and Aaron and said, "Pray to the LORD to take the frogs away from me and my people, and I will let your people go to offer sacrifices to the LORD."
In other words, Pharoah finally asks for a "hookup" from Moses source rather than declaring himself as the ego over Egypt. For a minute, anyway.
Ex 8:15- But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
He hardened his heart. And yet, it was the fact that God was showing him up that he hardened his heart. So..in a sense, God hardened his heart. Even the magicians saw the power.
Ex 8:19
The magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hard and he would not listen, just as the LORD had said.
In other words, "Hey Pharoah, these guys have a hookup to a power greater than anything we have ever seen. Best listen to them!" How typical of human nature, however. We never want to admit that there is something that we can't figure out or control.
Pharoah STILL wants to have the final say.
Ex 8:28-- Pharaoh said, "I will let you go to offer sacrifices to the LORD your God in the desert, but you must not go very far. Now pray for me."
In other words, go do what you gotta do, but I'm still the final authority around here. Pray for ME. Pharoah does not understand that it is God who even allowed him to be in power.
Ex 9:16-17
But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-27-2004 09:04 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by arachnophilia, posted 12-27-2004 1:33 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by arachnophilia, posted 12-31-2004 3:24 AM Phat has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 181 (171707)
12-27-2004 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by arachnophilia
12-27-2004 1:33 AM


You have ignored everything I have said and continue to quote mine Exodus.
The reason I went outside of Exodus to show you those passages was so that you could understand how God works.
You can post the text with gigantic font sizes to focus on something, you can also open your eyes to see the big picture.
Exodus 9:16-17:
16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?
Pharaoh had his chances to obey and honor God, just as these Egyptians had a chance to save their servants and cattle from the plague of hail. Note the distinction here: The ones that feared God's word saved their servants and cattle, the REBELLIOUS ones did not.
Exodus 9:20-21:
20 He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
21 And he that regarded not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field.
As I stated earlier, it is possible to disobey and dishonor God to such an extent that he will give you over to your sin completely and then you can never turn back.
Thus the many passages I quoted warning people not to harden their hearts. It all starts with you.
Will you give ear to or sear your conscience?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by arachnophilia, posted 12-27-2004 1:33 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by arachnophilia, posted 12-28-2004 1:43 AM dpardo has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 177 of 181 (171842)
12-28-2004 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by dpardo
12-27-2004 10:55 AM


You have ignored everything I have said and continue to quote mine Exodus.
no, i didn't. i'm talking about FOUR CHAPTERS in exodus. i chose one example, and told you to look for the other nine.
The reason I went outside of Exodus to show you those passages was so that you could understand how God works.
yes, but this is a simple question of GRAMMAR. exodus quotes god as saying that god hardened the heart of pharoah. not that pharoah hardened his own heart. how is this concept hard to understand? you're not arguing with me, you're arguing AGAINST THE BIBLE. the bible says that god manipulated pharoah heart.
i would love to think that god doesn't do that kind of thing, because that's really challenging to the idea of free will, among other things. but that's just not what the bible says. it does not say that pharoah hardened his own heart, it says that god did it. maybe other books talk of other people hardening their own hearts. it's a common expression. big deal. maybe other books say that pharoah hardened his own heart. but those books are not exodus. they are by different authors, at different times, and are probably trying to correct this very problem. this happens a lot of times in the bible -- see:
quote:
2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
quote:
1Ch 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
one instance is correcting the other, because the idea of god CHANGED. where one idea of god said that he could provoke men to evil, and be manipulative, the other idea did not, and this action was attributed to a new entity -- satan. dualism in christianity arose out of this very conflict.
but simply put, that's NOT what the earlier books say.
You can post the text with gigantic font sizes to focus on something, you can also open your eyes to see the big picture.
yet you still seem incapable of reading the text.
Exodus 9:16-17:
old philosophy, divine right of kings. those who rule must rule because god allows them to. this, taken in context of the rest of the book (and the verses i've been talking about) is even more example of god manipulating men.
Pharaoh had his chances to obey and honor God,
and in every instance, he DID. and then god changed his mind. have you even read exodus? pharoah almost lets them go about 9 times.
just as these Egyptians had a chance to save their servants and cattle from the plague of hail. Note the distinction here: The ones that feared God's word saved their servants and cattle, the REBELLIOUS ones did not.
and this is a suprise? of course the bible records that people who fear god prosper. the bible can be very biased. see the book of kings and the sin of jereboam. otherwise perfect kings are damned by the book because the neglected to tear down two temples and send everyone TO ANOTHER COUNTRY to worship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by dpardo, posted 12-27-2004 10:55 AM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by dpardo, posted 12-28-2004 12:35 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 178 of 181 (171889)
12-28-2004 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by arachnophilia
12-28-2004 1:43 AM


Arachnophilia writes:
of course the bible records that people who fear god prosper. the bible can be very biased.
Did Jesus and the prophets have a prosperous life on earth?
The bible is not "biased", it is truth.
Arachnophilia writes:
see the book of kings and the sin of jereboam. otherwise perfect kings are damned by the book because the neglected to tear down two temples and send everyone TO ANOTHER COUNTRY to worship.
The sin of Jeroboam:
1 Kings 13:33-34:
33 After this thing Jeroboam returned not from his evil way, but made again of the lowest of the people priests of the high places: whosoever would, he consecrated him, and he became one of the priests of the high places.
34 And this thing became sin unto the house of Jeroboam, even to cut it off, and to destroy it from off the face of the earth.
Ordaining priests which were not of the sons of Levi.
Also...
1 Kings 12:28-30:
28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.
30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
Does this sound like "otherwise perfect" to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by arachnophilia, posted 12-28-2004 1:43 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by arachnophilia, posted 12-31-2004 4:24 AM dpardo has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 179 of 181 (172462)
12-31-2004 3:24 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
12-27-2004 10:20 AM


Now, does Moses actually become God? No. Moses has the Spirit of the Creator as his authority. Pharoah, sensing that this Moses is representing an authority greater than himself, becomes stubborn.
you're wrong. look:
quote:
Exd 10:16 Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you.
Exd 10:17 Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from me this death only.
Exd 10:18 And he went out from Pharaoh, and intreated the LORD.
quote:
Exd 9:27 And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD [is] righteous, and I and my people [are] wicked.
Exd 9:28 Intreat the LORD (for [it is] enough) that there be no [more] mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer.
it's a really good book, you should read it sometime. or watch the movie or something. but after every plague, pharoah recants, and says he'll let the hebrews go. when pharoah just can't harden his heart anymore, god hardens his heart for him. do i have to find every example of this and post it? god does it, because, according to god in the verse you posted, that wouldn't be very cool if pharoah just let them go. god wants to do something really spectacular.
Pharoah tries to be "the man" in charge. He is outdone by these guys who are simple men compared to him. He even has sorcerers and magicians. Nobody can outdo the Spirit of God, however.
well that's because god starts out with parlor tricks. if moses had come in and said "god's pissed, can we go now? look i'll prove it:" and then, i dunno, made everyone in pharoah's court explode into little gory bits, pharoah's house and every pyramid in egypt vanish, and made goats fly out pharoah's own eyes, maybe he would have been more convinced. slight of hand just doesn't impress anyone that much.
The true One in charge did nothing to Pharoah except put him in his place by being there. God did not manipulate Pharoah. God simply showed it like it is.
1) I am.
2) You ain't.
why did god put him in his place ten times? why did he harden pharoah's heart ten times, after pharoah said "you know what, just go" ten times? you really should read the book. at least the first half anyways. the bits about laws and tabernacles is kind of boring.
He hardened his heart. And yet, it was the fact that God was showing him up that he hardened his heart. So..in a sense, God hardened his heart. Even the magicians saw the power.
yes, and by chapter ten, it's clear the god is manipulating pharoah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 12-27-2004 10:20 AM Phat has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 180 of 181 (172466)
12-31-2004 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by dpardo
12-28-2004 12:35 PM


Did Jesus and the prophets have a prosperous life on earth?
the story of jesus is written in a fundamentally different manner than books like exodus or kings. jesus is essentially the father of martyrdom. having him and his followers prosper would send the wrong message.
the ironic part is that the romans were not as eager to martyr christians as books like acts would lead us to believe.
The bible is not "biased", it is truth.
please. i challenge you again. here's a picture of king jehu kissing the feet of shalmanessar iii of assyria.
please point me to book, chapter, and verse that describes this meeting? because my bible simply doesn't have it.
you see, the book of kings LIKES jehu. he gets rid of jezebel, a foriegn queen, refuses alliances with foriegn powers, and generally works towards the consolidation of israel and judah. and so they neglect to mention that because of his refusal of alliances with the heathens, he LOST to the invading shalmanessar iii. it also suspiciously neglects to mention that his predeccor, with the help of the alliance, BEAT the first shalmanessar.
bias? yes.
jehu, even though the bible likes him -- still has the sin of jeroboam, and is still damned. find me a king in the northern kingdom that DOESN'T have the sin of jeroboam. i dare you.
Does this sound like "otherwise perfect" to you?
idolatry is thrown around alot in the ot. what, pray tell, are the cherubim on the ark of covenant? how are they different, as physical objects? they're both made of gold, both associate with worship, and in actuality likely have the same function.
you see, almost no god is ever depicted in mesopotamia. they all tend to be aniconic. you can't make pictures of them. sound familiar? they do traditionally make idols of offerings to the gods, or seats for the gods (such as the cherubim). there's a really good chance that the golden calves were just the same things.
it is however easy to sling at the northern kingdom, who you're mad at, as an insult and a reason god doesn't love them as much. now, let's look at this REALISTICALLY for a second.
israel and judah are split. jerusalem is the capital of judah, and "sort of" the center for worship. there other smaller temples around, and nobody has a problem with this until josiah is made king. josiah has the book of deuteronomy handy, which no other king before him had (according to the book of kings). deuteronomy says the following:
quote:
Deu 12:11-14
Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD: Take heed to thyself that thou offer not thy burnt offerings in every place that thou seest: But in the place which the LORD shall choose in one of thy tribes, there thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, and there thou shalt do all that I command thee.
leviticus doesn't say this, nor does exodus. but the book josiah has does. so until that time having temples elsewhere was fine. (kings was obviously written after josiah, agreed?)
so when jeroboam builds his temples in dan and bethel, it's ok. why would jeroboam send worshippers to another country to worship? that's outrageous. they don't get along with judah, obviously, otherwise they'd still be one country. so he builds some temples in his own kingdom.
now, when josiah "discovers" that it's a sin to build temples anywhere but jerusalem, because apparently god can only live in one place, it's quite obviously a shot at the northern kingdom. they're just calling them idolators, falsely, btw. the fact that it's a calf should be suspicious. why do they keep making calves? -- maybe it's a reference to exodus. (or maybe exodus is a reference to jeroboam. take your pick)
as a side note, you realize that any church you go to today is of course guilty under the sins of jeroboam, right? not only are the churches NOT the temple in jerusalem (this i can guarantee) but the priests are probably not sons of levi.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by dpardo, posted 12-28-2004 12:35 PM dpardo has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 181 of 181 (172793)
01-01-2005 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by arachnophilia
12-25-2004 1:32 AM


Arachnophilia
i think it might actually be more comforting to not believe in god. at least then i would know that all evil is merely the result our own decisions...
Were that such was the case.For me,personally,it is more disheartening to watch the momentum of nations guided by religious principles clashing with one another,each convinced of the validity of their god and the rightousness of their actions.To know that the death of innocents cannot be justified through the caring of a god or a reward in heaven makes the loss all the more poignant and gut-wrenching.
To pity and whatever mourns in man
Before the last sea and the hapless stars;
Whatever mourns when many leave these shores;
Whatever shares
The eternal reciprocity of tears.
No one wins in war as a general rule.Pun intended.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by arachnophilia, posted 12-25-2004 1:32 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
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