|
Author
|
Topic: the book of job, and an unjust god
|
dpardo
Inactive Member
|
Nighttrain, For the purpose of addressing the issues that Arachnophilia brought up, can we postpone your questions for later?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 89 by Nighttrain, posted 12-21-2004 6:54 PM | | Nighttrain has not replied |
|
dpardo
Inactive Member
|
From your other thread,
Arachnophilia writes: this is a god who decimated egyptian society by manipulating the emotions of pharoah and then punishing everyone for it, including killing many, many innocent children only to get off on how glorious his might is. read the first half of exodus exodus 10:1-2 writes:
quote:
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I [am] the LORD.
How was the the Pharaoh's heart hardened? Was it not his own sin that caused this hardness? I discussed earlier how the bible says that sin causes us to grow progressively more callous toward God. After the Philistines had captured the Ark of God from a sinful Israel, God smote them with a plague of emerods: 1 Samuel 6:1-6:
1 And the ark of the LORD was in the country of the Philistines seven months.
2 And the Philistines called for the priests and the diviners, saying, What shall we do to the ark of the LORD? tell us wherewith we shall send it to his place.
3 And they said, If ye send away the ark of the God of Israel, send it not empty; but in any wise return him a trespass offering: then ye shall be healed, and it shall be known to you why his hand is not removed from you.
4 Then said they, What shall be the trespass offering which we shall return to him? They answered, Five golden emerods, and five golden mice, according to the number of the lords of the Philistines: for one plague was on you all, and on your lords.
5 Wherefore ye shall make images of your emerods, and images of your mice that mar the land; and ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods, and from off your land.
6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?
|
dpardo
Inactive Member
|
|
Message 93 of 181 (170606)
12-21-2004 8:31 PM
|
|
|
I have to go off-line now but I will continue later on or tomorrow.
|
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: 08-30-2003
|
|
|
Message 94 of 181 (170625)
12-21-2004 10:51 PM
|
Reply to: Message 90 by dpardo
12-21-2004 7:11 PM
|
|
dpardo I do apologize as I did not mean to imply this as being something you would willingly do.However if you were commanded by someone who claimed as Samuel did that these were orders from god then what would you do?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by dpardo, posted 12-21-2004 7:11 PM | | dpardo has not replied |
|
berberry
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 95 of 181 (170634)
12-22-2004 1:41 AM
|
Reply to: Message 68 by dpardo
12-21-2004 3:44 PM
|
|
dpardo obfuscates:
quote:
You are viewing/reading/interpreting the Bible through the bias of all that Satan has accomplished in you.
No I'm not, I'm reading the damn book! 1 Sam 15:3:
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. The book says that God ordered the slaughter of men and women, infant and suckling, does it not? In my opinion when suckling infants are slaughtered they feel pain. From your conversation with Dan I gather that you take a different view, but nonetheless I feel that ordering the slaughter of innocent babies is unacceptable behavior for any god. If this is the way the Christian god acts I want no part of him. What disturbs me is that people like you find this sort of maniacally stupid revenge action to be not only permissable of your god but in fact worthy of worship and praise. No "holy spirit" is going to lead me to the place where you are, thank you.
Keep America Safe AND Free!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 68 by dpardo, posted 12-21-2004 3:44 PM | | dpardo has not replied |
|
tsig
Member (Idle past 2936 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: 04-09-2004
|
|
|
Message 96 of 181 (170640)
12-22-2004 3:34 AM
|
Reply to: Message 87 by dpardo
12-21-2004 5:39 PM
|
|
nits make lice
God's purposes aside for the moment, wouldn't they just grow up to kill you for killing their parents? You also want to hunt down any relatives who might want revenge. Kill em all, God will know his own. Can't you just admit that killing babies is wrong no matter why?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by dpardo, posted 12-21-2004 5:39 PM | | dpardo has not replied |
|
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 97 of 181 (170686)
12-22-2004 9:07 AM
|
Reply to: Message 87 by dpardo
12-21-2004 5:39 PM
|
|
God's purposes aside for the moment, wouldn't they just grow up to kill you for killing their parents? Usually, I'm not really in favor of killing people because of something they might do in the future.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 87 by dpardo, posted 12-21-2004 5:39 PM | | dpardo has not replied |
|
dpardo
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 98 of 181 (170732)
12-22-2004 12:14 PM
|
|
|
Exodus 23:7 says:
7 Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked. Exodus 20:5-6:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Can it be that the children of the wicked Amalekites (and of the wicked people that were destroyed in the flood) were not innocent? God clearly said in Exodus 20:5 that the iniquity of the fathers would be visited upon the children. Because of the treachery of the Amalekite forefathers, God had declared that he would wipe them off the face of the earth. At that time, the Amalekites knew God's sentence. If they then continued in their wickedness and did not repent, and then proceeded to continue to have babies, THEY (the Amalekites themselves) knowingly sentenced their babies to death. If you know all of your family and descendents are going to die because of something you did and you then proceed to procreate, aren't you knowingly sentencing even more people to death? The fact of the matter is the Amalekites didn't believe God and they didn't care. Neither did the evil generation of Noah's time care. Besides what the Amalekites did in regards to attacking God's people, they already had all of the iniquity of their lifestyle.
|
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 99 of 181 (170738)
12-22-2004 12:20 PM
|
Reply to: Message 98 by dpardo
12-22-2004 12:14 PM
|
|
Can it be that the children of the wicked Amalekites (and of the wicked people that were destroyed in the flood) were not innocent? Babies are sinning all the time. Lousy little bastards, sitting there and doing nothing but eating, pooping, and crying. It's hideously immoral.
If you know all of your family and descendents are going to die because of something you did and you then proceed to procreate, aren't you knowingly sentencing even more people to death? So if I tell you, "If you have children, I will kill them", wait a few years until you have a kid, and then shoot your newborn baby through the head, it's your fault? Good to know.
The fact of the matter is the Amalekites didn't believe God and they didn't care. It's okay to kill a baby if its parents are atheists? Good to know as well. This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 12-22-2004 12:23 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 12:14 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 101 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 12:35 PM | | Dan Carroll has not replied | | | Message 102 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 12:36 PM | | Dan Carroll has replied |
|
berberry
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 100 of 181 (170743)
12-22-2004 12:31 PM
|
Reply to: Message 98 by dpardo
12-22-2004 12:14 PM
|
|
dpardo writes:
quote:
Can it be that the children of the wicked Amalekites (and of the wicked people that were destroyed in the flood) were not innocent?
No it can't. Suckling infants are always innocent. Let's just say I take this on faith.
quote:
God clearly said in Exodus 20:5 that the iniquity of the fathers would be visited upon the children.
Indeed, which just goes to show that this god is not just. I don't want to be punished for the sins of my father or grandfather and it would be stupid for god or anyone else to punish me thus. And to think you people want our legal code to be more god-like!
quote:
Because of the treachery of the Amalekite forefathers, God had declared that he would wipe them off the face of the earth. At that time, the Amalekites knew God's sentence. If they then continued in their wickedness and did not repent, and then proceeded to continue to have babies, THEY (the Amalekites themselves) knowingly sentenced their babies to death.
Doesn't matter. The babies are still babies. They're innocent. Do you think that the children of rapists and murderers should be slaughtered?
quote:
If you know all of your family and descendents are going to die because of something you did and you then proceed to procreate, aren't you knowingly sentencing even more people to death?
No, but I'd be an absolute fool to believe that a just god worthy of worship and praise would ever kill my child because of something I did. Why can't God take his revenge on guilty parties? Why does it have to be the innocent who pay? Is God a pervert?
quote:
The fact of the matter is the Amalekites didn't believe God and they didn't care.
Meaning what? That anyone who doesn't believe in your god should be slaughtered mercilessly? My, how uplifting! Makes me want to break into a chorus of Onward Christian Soldiers.
Keep America Safe AND Free!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 12:14 PM | | dpardo has replied |
|
dpardo
Inactive Member
|
Dan Carroll writes: So if I tell you, "If you have children, I will kill them", wait a few years until you have a kid, and then shoot your newborn baby through the head, it's your fault? If God or anyone capable of taking my child's life tells me thus, then "yes".
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 12:20 PM | | Dan Carroll has not replied |
|
dpardo
Inactive Member
|
Dan Carroll writes: quote:
The fact of the matter is the Amalekites didn't believe God and they didn't care.
It's okay to kill a baby if its parents are atheists? They were not atheists. They simply refused to listen and obey God.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 12:20 PM | | Dan Carroll has replied |
|
dpardo
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 103 of 181 (170747)
12-22-2004 12:38 PM
|
Reply to: Message 100 by berberry
12-22-2004 12:31 PM
|
|
Berberry writes: Indeed, which just goes to show that this god is not just. I don't want to be punished for the sins of my father or grandfather and it would be stupid for god or anyone else to punish me thus. Great. Then, is it reasonable that you be punished for your own sins? What is the penalty for sin?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 100 by berberry, posted 12-22-2004 12:31 PM | | berberry has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 105 by berberry, posted 12-22-2004 12:44 PM | | dpardo has not replied |
|
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 104 of 181 (170749)
12-22-2004 12:42 PM
|
Reply to: Message 102 by dpardo
12-22-2004 12:36 PM
|
|
If God or anyone capable of taking my child's life tells me thus, then "yes". Dude... I am more than capable of taking your child's life. I simply wouldn't do so, because that would be psycho. But it's good to know that you'd consider it your fault, and that in your eyes I would be free of any culpability.
They simply refused to listen and obey God. I see... so if someone (such as, say, an atheist) doesn't listen to or obey God, it's okay to kill their children?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 102 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 12:36 PM | | dpardo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 108 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:01 PM | | Dan Carroll has replied |
|
berberry
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 105 of 181 (170751)
12-22-2004 12:44 PM
|
Reply to: Message 103 by dpardo
12-22-2004 12:38 PM
|
|
quote:
Then, is it reasonable that you be punished for your own sins?
No, it isn't. If I've break a law I know the chance I'm taking and if I get caught I know I might be punished. For "sin", no. Your god is NOT my god and he has no right to punish me for anything. My sins are not the topic of this thread, though. Time for you to go back and adress the other points I made.
Keep America Safe AND Free!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 103 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 12:38 PM | | dpardo has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2