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Author Topic:   the book of job, and an unjust god
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 181 (170752)
12-22-2004 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by berberry
12-22-2004 12:31 PM


Berberry writes:
No, but I'd be an absolute fool to believe that a just god worthy of worship and praise would ever kill my child because of something I did. Why can't God take his revenge on guilty parties? Why does it have to be the innocent who pay? Is God a pervert?
This really is a difficult concept to understand.
And I would certainly like it if we could ask God personally ( I believe we will someday) why these things are.
But, this is consistent with what we see today.
Adults sin and their children end up suffering the consequences.
There is also another lesson to observe.
Children are a gift from God. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.
Children are not ours. They are God's.
We must also remember that when God takes a child, or allows a child to die, he cease living here but he goes to paradise with him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by berberry, posted 12-22-2004 12:31 PM berberry has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 181 (170756)
12-22-2004 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by berberry
12-22-2004 12:31 PM


Berberry writes:
quote:
The fact of the matter is the Amalekites didn't believe God and they didn't care.
Meaning what? That anyone who doesn't believe in your god should be slaughtered mercilessly? My, how uplifting! Makes me want to break into a chorus of Onward Christian Soldiers.
It's not just a matter of not believing in my God.
The Amalekites were wicked, as were all of the Canaanite nations whose land God gave the Israelites.
We read how the Amalekites attacked the Israelites:
Deuteronomy 25:17-18:
17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;
18 How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.
What kinds of practices did the heathen nations engage in?
Deuteronomy 12:30-32:
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by berberry, posted 12-22-2004 12:31 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 1:02 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 114 by berberry, posted 12-22-2004 1:14 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 181 (170758)
12-22-2004 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Dan Carroll
12-22-2004 12:42 PM


Dan Carroll writes:
Dude... I am more than capable of taking your child's life.
I simply wouldn't do so, because that would be psycho.
How much more "psycho" then are people that, having knowledge of God, not only refuse to obey but attack God's people and sacrifice their own children to false gods?
Edit: Grammar.
This message has been edited by dpardo, 12-22-2004 01:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 12:42 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 1:05 PM dpardo has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 181 (170759)
12-22-2004 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by dpardo
12-22-2004 12:56 PM


We read how the Amalekites attacked the Israelites
I still love the idea of the suckling infants attacking the Israelites. I can just imagine them in their cloth diapers, trying to lug a huge sword around. It's so cute!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 12:56 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:05 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 181 (170762)
12-22-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Dan Carroll
12-22-2004 1:02 PM


Dan Carroll writes:
I still love the idea of the suckling infants attacking the Israelites. I can just imagine them in their cloth diapers, trying to lug a huge sword around. It's so cute!
I love how you dodge all the other points and focus on the children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 1:02 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 1:06 PM dpardo has not replied
 Message 116 by berberry, posted 12-22-2004 1:16 PM dpardo has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 181 (170763)
12-22-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by dpardo
12-22-2004 1:01 PM


How much more "psycho"
So two wrongs make a right. Got it.
someone who, having knowledge of God, not only refuses to obey
Once again, if someone doesn't obey God, it's a-okay to kill their children. Got it.
but attacks his people
No, I'll back you up here. Attacking people is just plain wrong. Doesn't justify killing the attacker's children, but it's still wrong.
and sacrificies their own children to false gods?
Wow, they killed their children for their gods. That's bad.
Of course, when the Israelites kill the Amalekite children for their god, it's totally different, for some reason.
This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 12-22-2004 01:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:01 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:11 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 181 (170764)
12-22-2004 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by dpardo
12-22-2004 1:05 PM


I love how you dodge all the other points and focus on the children.
Probably because I'm not arguing about anyone other than the children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:05 PM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 181 (170768)
12-22-2004 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Dan Carroll
12-22-2004 1:05 PM


Dan Carroll writes:
So two wrongs make a right. Got it.
No. You still haven't got it.
Dan Carroll writes:
Once again, if someone doesn't obey God, it's a-okay to kill their children. Got it.
You are generalizing. You still haven't got it.
Dan Carroll writes:
Of course, when the Israelites kill the Amakelite children for their god, it's totally different, for some reason.
You are starting to get it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 1:05 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 1:14 PM dpardo has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 181 (170772)
12-22-2004 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by dpardo
12-22-2004 12:56 PM


dpardo writes:
quote:
The Amalekites were wicked...
So you say. But you still haven't explained why their wickedness made their suckling infant children fair game for God's vengeful "justice". You're avoiding that issue.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 12:56 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:20 PM berberry has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 181 (170773)
12-22-2004 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by dpardo
12-22-2004 1:11 PM


No. You still haven't got it.
Oh, so two wrongs don't make a right. Then I don't possibly see how the Israelites were justified in killing a bunch of babies.
You are generalizing. You still haven't got it.
How am I generalizing? You said that the reason for killing the Amalekites' babies was that the Amalekites didn't obey God.
So... not obeying God means that it's open season on your children.
You are starting to get it.
Now if you can simply explain what that reason is, and how you arrived at it, we'll be gravy.
This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 12-22-2004 01:15 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:11 PM dpardo has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 181 (170775)
12-22-2004 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by dpardo
12-22-2004 1:05 PM


dpardo writes Dan:
quote:
I love how you dodge all the other points and focus on the children.
It's God's treatment of the children that is at issue with Dan and I; haven't you figured that out yet? We're talking about an unjust god per the thread title and you are the one who keeps avoiding the issue.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:05 PM dpardo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 1:18 PM berberry has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 181 (170777)
12-22-2004 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by berberry
12-22-2004 1:16 PM


It's God's treatment of the children that is at issue with Dan and I; haven't you figured that out yet?
Dude, how long did it take him to figure out that yes, getting killed hurts? (Still not sure if he's gotten that one down, but he seems to have at least dropped it.) Make a little allowance for the learning curve here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by berberry, posted 12-22-2004 1:16 PM berberry has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:24 PM Dan Carroll has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 181 (170778)
12-22-2004 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by berberry
12-22-2004 1:14 PM


Berberry writes:
So you say. But you still haven't explained why their wickedness made their suckling infant children fair game for God's vengeful "justice". You're avoiding that issue.
He had sentenced the Amalekites to be wiped out from the face of the earth for their treacherous assault of the Israelites, for their disobedience of God, for sacrificing their children to their Gods, for homosexuality, bestiality, and other sins. ALL Amalekites includes babies, assuming there were some at the time of the war.
As we saw, there was a long period of time from the pronouncement of God till the fulfillment thereof. The Amalekites could have repented and asked God for forgiveness. They could have taken him seriously and not had any more babies. They did none of these but only continued in their wickedness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by berberry, posted 12-22-2004 1:14 PM berberry has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:22 PM dpardo has not replied
 Message 121 by Coragyps, posted 12-22-2004 1:27 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 181 (170780)
12-22-2004 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by dpardo
12-22-2004 1:20 PM


They did none of these but only continued in their wickedness.
-Just like the generation of Noah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by dpardo, posted 12-22-2004 1:20 PM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 181 (170782)
12-22-2004 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Dan Carroll
12-22-2004 1:18 PM


Dan Carroll writes:
Dude, how long did it take him to figure out that yes, getting killed hurts?
How long did it take you to figure out that the children of the parents you slayed would someday avenge themselves of you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 1:18 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-22-2004 1:27 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 123 by berberry, posted 12-22-2004 1:30 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 133 by sidelined, posted 12-22-2004 2:45 PM dpardo has replied

  
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