Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 150 (135207)
08-19-2004 9:40 AM


I contend that the death of Jesus was not an atonement sacrifice to pay for the sins of humanity.
In Isaiah and Jeremiah God says he did not and still didn't require sacrifices.
Isaiah 1 (JPS Torah)
1 THE VISION of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. ...
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto Me? saith the LORD; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats. 12 When ye come to appear before Me, who hath required this at your hand, to trample My courts? 13 Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me; new moon and sabbath, the holding of convocations-- I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly. 14 Your new moons and your appointed seasons My soul hateth; they are a burden unto Me; I am weary to bear them. 15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood. 16 Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Above God says to learn to do well etc. In other words get along and help those less fortunate.
Below in Isaiah 66:3 God says he doesn’t like sacrifices of any kind.
Isaiah 66 (JPS Torah)
3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he broke a dog's neck; he that offereth a meal-offering, as if he offered swine's blood; he that maketh a memorial-offering of frankincense, as if he blessed an idol; according as they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations...
Jeremiah 7:24 below even says that they went backward and not forward. So even from God viewpoint they should have matured away from sacrifices and hadn’t.
Jeremiah 7 (JPS Torah)
21 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Add your burnt-offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat ye flesh. 22 For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt-offerings or sacrifices; 23 but this thing I commanded them, saying: 'Hearken unto My voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be My people; and walk ye in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' 24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in their own counsels, even in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward...
In Jeremiah 8:8, God says that his people do not know what behavior he truly wants from them and that the scribes are not as honest and infallible as we are lead to believe. They apparently could and did mess with the word.
Jeremiah 8 (JPS Torah)
7 Yea, the stork in the heaven knoweth her appointed times; and the turtle and the swallow and the crane observe the time of their coming; but My people know not the ordinance of the LORD. 8 How do ye say: 'We are wise, and the Law of the LORD is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes.
Since God did not require sacrifices to atone for sins, Jesus could not be an atonement sacrifice. The only real atonement for sin seems to be for us to request forgiveness from the one we have sinned against and make restitution. As we forgive those who trespass against us...
Mrk 11:25 (NIV)
Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.
I have yet to find any true messianic prophecy that claims any anointed one was to die so that God would forgive the sins of humanity.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 08-20-2004 5:32 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 4 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-20-2004 7:45 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 9 by lfen, posted 08-20-2004 8:44 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 14 by General Nazort, posted 08-20-2004 9:57 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 44 by Aurelie, posted 08-23-2004 5:59 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 123 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-25-2004 3:05 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 5 of 150 (135785)
08-20-2004 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
08-20-2004 5:32 PM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
I'm not real clear on what you are trying to say.
The adults understood that you don't punish a horse for doing a very normal activity of running through plants. Orderly gardens just don't mean anything to animals. All they could do was repair the mess.
I'm guessing you said you were sorry and they accepted your apology.
I don't see any sin in the story.
Some history on the Victory Garden

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 08-20-2004 5:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 08-20-2004 8:09 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 13 of 150 (135823)
08-20-2004 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Hangdawg13
08-20-2004 7:45 PM


quote:
So what was it for?
That would be another thread topic.
quote:
Sure, God could have cared less about the sacrifices themselves, it is the state of mind that counts. Since they were in they wrong state of mind they were vain hypocrits and God showed his disapproval.
I would say he was more concerned with their actions.
Isaiah 1:11
Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil; 17 Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
quote:
God required only ONE sacrifice. Christ died ONCE for the sins of ALL humanity. The animal sacrifices were only symbols of the atoning sacrfice to come.
The scriptures quoted in the OP show that God did not demand or require the sacrifices to forgive sin or watch over the Israelites. He had no use for the sacrifices. They served no purpose. He wanted people to live in harmony.
Since God did not demand or require sacrifices of any sort to forgive sins, then God would not require the death of one man for that purpose.
Isaiah 52-53 was written in past tense.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-20-2004 7:45 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 15 of 150 (135826)
08-20-2004 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
08-20-2004 8:09 PM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
quote:
Just as my parents, God found a way to forgive us our sins.
That is my point.
God did have a way to forgive our sins. We apologize to the person we hurt, they forgive us and he forgives us. Then we don't make the same mistake again. He asked that we treat each other well.
He didn't require sacrifices then and he didn't require Jesus to die so that he could forgive people.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 08-20-2004 8:09 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Christian7, posted 08-21-2004 11:16 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 17 of 150 (135844)
08-20-2004 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by General Nazort
08-20-2004 9:57 PM


I haven't ignored anything.
The thought that God did not require or desire sacrifices also shows up in their songs, which did not refer to sacrificing to idols.
Psalm 40
6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
Psalm 51
16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.
So it was not a new concept among God's people that God did not require or desire the sacrifices.
God was angry that they sacrificed to other gods, but he also said he did not give them the commands for sacrifice.
Who did the sacrifical system truly benefit?
quote:
And if who you sinned agaisnt is dead? No forgiveness? That would stink.
So don't sin, then you won't need forgiveness.
quote:
And you support this by ignoring passages that contradict your theory, and by ignoring the context/misunderstanding other passages in order to make them seem like they help your theory.
Which means the Bible contradicts itself, the prophets were lying, or God just doesn't remember what he said earlier.
The Bible is a religious and political writing. There are battling nations, kings, and prophets. The scribes did the writing and rewriting and no matter what anyone's theory is, someone will always complain about words being taken out of context or misunderstanding.
What I see are people trying to do away with an expensive sacrificial system that doesn't seem to have been required except maybe by the priests.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by General Nazort, posted 08-20-2004 9:57 PM General Nazort has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2004 11:35 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 24 of 150 (135895)
08-21-2004 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by lfen
08-20-2004 8:44 PM


quote:
I know sacrifice was practised by the Jews and Greeks. Perhaps it's based on childhood dynamics of guilt, punishment, forgiveness and atonement with the parents.
IMPO, with no source material, ancient cultures performed sacrifices to appease what they perceived as displeaure from the gods or God. (Droughts, floods, natural disasters etc.) That would be your forgiveness and atonement scenerio. I also feel there were sacrifices to guarantee favor from the gods or God. (Battles, fertility, wealth etc.)
Churches use the same scenerios today. At the beginning of each fiscal year, the churches I have been to always give the talk on tithing. Insinuating the more money you give to the church the more God will bless you.
I've heard people promise to give up something of value (life, money, vice etc) if God will grant their petition.
So it seems people still have the need even today to grease God's palm, so to speak, to receive blessings or forgiveness.
Even though the books of the prophets seem to contradict themselves on whether God wanted sacrifices or not; once we get around the religous grandstanding and the political posturing, I feel the overall theme of the Bible is right behavior toward others all the time, not just when it benefits you.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by lfen, posted 08-20-2004 8:44 PM lfen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ramoss, posted 08-23-2004 4:37 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 147 by Epiphany7, posted 10-21-2005 1:07 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 25 of 150 (135901)
08-21-2004 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Buzsaw
08-20-2004 11:35 PM


quote:
it was God who instigated the sacrifices and who required atonement be made for sin.
quote:
They were living for the devil, so to speak and figuring all they had to do was kill some sacrifices and placate a just God whom they had disobeyed.
You say the sacrifice was required to atone for sin and yet you say that the prophets are telling the sinning and disobedient Israelites that their sacrifices won't atone for their sins.
quote:
God is telling them to forget the meaningless sacrifices until they repent and return to him because they were a useless farce without allegience to him as their God. Sacrifices were for the devout, the repentant and the true worshippers of God
This doesn't make sense to me. The devout shouldn't be sinning. Those who repent should not sin again. Neither of these should need sacrifices. If, as you say, the sacrifices are only for those who are doing what is right, then the sacrifices do not truly atone for sin. God is forgiving the sins because of repentance, not the sacrifice.
So David was wrong when he sang that God didn't desire sacrifices?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2004 11:35 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 10:48 AM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 30 of 150 (135992)
08-21-2004 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Christian7
08-21-2004 11:16 AM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
quote:
God is not bound by time. Duh!
But we are and God was supposedly talking with the prophets in real time.
Does God speak to Christians today in past tense?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Christian7, posted 08-21-2004 11:16 AM Christian7 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 7:14 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 32 of 150 (135998)
08-21-2004 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
08-21-2004 10:48 AM


quote:
But no one required GOD to make such a sacrifice. Instead, Jesus life, death and reserection was an offering, freely give, by GOD of GOD. Not only is it propitiation for our sins, it is a clear statement against traditional sacrifice and an example of what sacrifice should be in the future.
I'm not seeing the clear statement or how sacrifice should be in the future.
The only real propitiation for our sins is repentance and continued right behavior.
Ezekiel 18:21-22
But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.
Repentance and continuing to do right behavior is what saved the wicked man, not a sacrifice.
Ezekiel 18:24
But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
No sacrifice will atone for his sins, only repentance as seen above.
Jesus preached repentance, not sacrifice.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 10:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 8:41 PM purpledawn has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 33 of 150 (136003)
08-21-2004 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
08-21-2004 7:14 PM


Re: God speaking in past tense today?
Been there heard that one!
But was God talking about something you had done in the past or something you were going "screw up" in the future? Could it have been about something your children are going to "screw up" in the future?
I pretty much knew that what I had "screwed up" had already happened.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 7:14 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 8:51 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 36 of 150 (136101)
08-22-2004 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
08-21-2004 8:41 PM


quote:
Sacrifice...hasn't been needed since Jesus died
My point being that it wasn't needed before he died either.
quote:
we must first acknowledge, and repent whatever sins we may have done
Exactly! That's what Ezekiel 18 was saying. The act of repenting, refraining from wrong behavior and doing right behavior is what God wants.
(Sorry got interrupted so I'll have to finish my thoughts on sin offering later.)

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 8:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 08-22-2004 1:02 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 38 of 150 (136267)
08-23-2004 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by General Nazort
08-20-2004 9:57 PM


quote:
This does not say the scribes were messing with the word. This says the scribes copied it but no one read it - poeple ignored it and did not follow it. That is why the scribes copied in vain.
The Hebrew word translated vain in the version I provided is "Sheqer".
From Strong's
1. lie, deception, disappointment, falsehood
a. deception (what deceives or disappoints or betrays one)
b. deceit, fraud, wrong
1. fraudulently, wrongfully (as adverb)
c. falsehood (injurious in testimony)
1. testify falsehood, false oath, swear falsely
d. falsity (of false or self-deceived prophets)
e. lie, falsehood (in general)
1. false tongue
f. in vain
The word for vain as you are using the word is "shav".
1. emptiness, vanity, falsehood
a. emptiness, nothingness, vanity
b. emptiness of speech, lying
c. worthlessness (of conduct)
Here are variations of the same verse:
Complete Jewish Bible
How can you say, We are wise; Adonai's Torah is with us, when in fact the lying pen of the scribes has turned it into falsehood?
Modern Language
How dare you say, We are wise, and the teaching of the Lord is with us? But see, the falsifying pen of the scribes made it into a fabrication.
Living Bible
How can you say, We understand his laws, when your teachers have twisted them up to mean a thing I never said?
Revised Standard
How can you say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
New American Standard
How can you say, We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
King James Version
How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by General Nazort, posted 08-20-2004 9:57 PM General Nazort has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 67 of 150 (136736)
08-25-2004 9:15 AM


Messianic Prophecy
Back on track. This thread isn't to discuss who Jesus is, but that blood sacrifices were not required by God to forgive sins and that a one time human sacrifice (the messiah) to atone for ALL of humanities sins is not alluded to in the OT.
I’m answering this generically so as not to repeat myself and to group the various parts brought out by participants. This one is on the Messianic Prophecy not the sacrificing tradition.
Zechariah 9:9 is the only prophecy I have read so far that talks of a coming king. Still there is no mention of a sinless human who must die as a penalty or to make amends (atone) for the sins of humanity.
As ramoss stated in message 39:
Remember, to the Jewish population, the messiah was going to be
a spiritual/military leader who frees them foreign occupation, and
establishes a time of peace, prosperity and Torah as the acknowledged
path to God, and the scattered Jews brought home to Israel. The Messiah was not going to be an incarnation of God.
So I have yet to see a true prophecy that speaks of a sinless human to be sacrificed (slaughtered) to cleanse, atone, or pay the penalty for the sins of humanity.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 68 of 150 (136740)
08-25-2004 9:33 AM


Lying Pen
The message concerns the possibility that scribes/people had changed God's requirements.
Book of Jeremiah (a prophet of Judah)
Jeremiah 8
7 "Even the stork in the sky Knows her seasons; And the turtledove and the swift and the thrush Observe the time of their migration; But My people do not know the ordinance of the LORD.
8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.
9 "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?
I understand that God is upset. He says his people DO NOT know his ordinances and that the scribes have turned it into a lie. So what his people are being taught is incorrect. God is telling them there is a problem.
Jeremiah 7
22 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
23 "But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people ; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'
Earlier God says he DID NOT speak to their fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
Another warning from God that there has been a communication problem through the generations.
Now there was a thread several months ago (I haven’t been able to find it), but as I remember the OP set the scenario as a person walking along and a voice called the person by name and the voice said it was God. How would the person have the voice prove it was God?
One answer that caught my attention (and again I don’t know who it was) was one that said roughly that if the voice contradicted anything in the Bible that it wasn’t God. The scary part of that thought is that if we fallible humans have screw things up, we aren’t even open to correction directly from God.
That’s exactly what God told Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 7
27 "You shall speak all these words to them, but they will not listen to you; and you shall call to them, but they will not answer you.
28 You shall say to them, 'This is the nation that did not obey the voice of the LORD their God or accept correction; truth has perished and has been cut off from their mouth.
So God told Jeremiah that they would not listen to him and that they were a nation that did not accept correction. He also told him that he did not speak about or command sacrifices and that his people did not know his ordinances. Finally, we have the lying scribes, which tells us that God knew there were errors in what was written at the time.
Deuteronomy 10:1-5 (Moses talking) (In the fortieth year)
"At that time the LORD said to me, 'Cut out for yourself two tablets of stone like the former ones, and come up to Me on the mountain, and make an ark of wood for yourself.
'I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered, and you shall put them in the ark.'
"So I made an ark of acacia wood and cut out two tablets of stone like the former ones, and went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hand....
Exodus 25:10-22 (Hebrews 3 Months out of Egypt Exodus 19)
"They shall construct an ark of acacia wood two and a half cubits long, and one and a half cubits wide, and one and a half cubits high.
"You shall overlay it with pure gold, inside and out you shall overlay it, and you shall make a gold molding around it.
The sacrificial system in Exodus and Leviticus is very detailed and very elaborate. Almost too elaborate for a group 3 months across the desert. Sounds more like a system that has developed over time.
Deuteronomy in the fortieth year doesn’t have the elaborate trappings.
Another difference between Exodus/Leviticus and Deuteronomy is the usage of Mt. Horeb and Mt. Sinai, which are supposedly the same place.
Horeb is used 9 times in Deuteronomy. It is used zero (0) times in Leviticus and Numbers. It is used 3 times in Exodus.
By contrast Sinai is used 13 times in Exodus, 4 times in Leviticus, 12 times in Numbers, and only 1 time in Deuteronomy.
If we knew which name the mountain went by at the time of the Exodus, we would know which part was added later. This is probably another example of the traditions evolved differently while in exile and then blended when they came back together.
Deuteronomy 5:22
These are the commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.
In 2 Kings it sounds as though the priests and kings lost contact with the Book of the Law
2 Kings 22
8 Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the Lord. ...13 Great is the Lord’s anger that burns against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.
2 Kings 23
22 Not since the days of the judges who led Israel, nor throughout the days of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah, and any such Passover been observed.
These verses give us reason to take a closer look at whether sacrifices were truly intended to atone for all sins even with the right attitude.
The next message will be on the sin sacrifices themselves.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Adminnemooseus, posted 08-25-2004 12:13 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 70 by purpledawn, posted 08-25-2004 12:26 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 70 of 150 (136783)
08-25-2004 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by purpledawn
08-25-2004 9:33 AM


Re: Lying Pen
Excellent!
Thank you very much Adminnemooseus.
There are two messages with the similar thought.
Messsage 17 and Message 21 at What Would You Have God Do?

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by purpledawn, posted 08-25-2004 9:33 AM purpledawn has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024