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Author Topic:   Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 7 of 150 (135791)
08-20-2004 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
08-20-2004 8:09 PM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
Why couldn't God have done just as your parents did and just flat out forgiven you? Why a sacrifice at all?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 08-20-2004 8:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 08-20-2004 8:43 PM lfen has replied
 Message 10 by jar, posted 08-20-2004 8:47 PM lfen has not replied
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2004 10:30 PM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 9 of 150 (135795)
08-20-2004 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
08-19-2004 9:40 AM


purpledawn,
I am very interested in this thread. I think the notion of sacrifice is a very primitive belief that for reasons I can't understand, and I'm hoping this thread might shed some light, has a deep pull for the human mind. Like all these ancient things it's not a simple straightforward concept but rather has different manifestations.
I know sacrifice was practised by the Jews and Greeks. Perhaps it's based on childhood dynamics of guilt, punishment, forgiveness and atonement with the parents.
What is interesting to me in the scriptures you quote is that there was dissent about the practise of sacrifice in the religion at that time. I hadn't been aware that there had been prophets that objected to that practise.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 08-19-2004 9:40 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by purpledawn, posted 08-21-2004 5:45 AM lfen has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 11 of 150 (135814)
08-20-2004 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
08-20-2004 8:43 PM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
Jar,
Comparing and contrasting the two great icons of east and west: Christ nailed on the cross and the seated Buddha.
Jesus was supposed to have been poor and lived a brief life barely beginning his teachings before his crucifixion which was intended to be a dishonorable death. His image on the cross is one of torment and suffering but forgiving those who condemned him (though in history those who claimed his cause would fail at that and would persecute Jews, witches, heretics, etc)
The Buddha was supposed to have been born in wealthy circumstances and pampered by his father who wanted him to succeed him as Maharaja of their little land. He gave up wealth and power and after his awakening he taught over for over 30 years until his death. He was honored and loved and established what appears to be a peaceable reform of the Hinduism of his time. His icon is one of sitting in serene peace radiating compassion. With a few exceptions (those being Japan and I believe Ceylon) historically buddhists have avoided killing or harshly treating those who differed from them. In the main buddhists have successful practised nonviolent compassion.
It's hard for me to reconcile the two approaches though I suppose it can be done. It does seem that in Judaism those who favored sacrifice to God won out over those who counseled it as not being necessary, at least in the Christian lineage. Yet I am fascinated that purple found passages favoring the abandoning of sacrifice. The example of Buddhism would further support the notion that sacrifice is not necessary for getting our attention, though it certainly does get attention.
In every war there are fathers who sacrifice their sons, and though Christianity holds the doctrine of the just war there have been quite a few of them. I suppose our intervention in Iraq is an offshoot of the doctrine. I have to suspect that the violent nature of the sacrifice doctrine has influenced this.
I wonder if purpledawn will be able to construct another interpretation of this. If Jesus was not a sacrifice to forgive sins, what was he?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 08-20-2004 8:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 08-20-2004 9:35 PM lfen has not replied
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2004 12:00 AM lfen has replied
 Message 39 by ramoss, posted 08-23-2004 4:26 PM lfen has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 20 of 150 (135857)
08-21-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
08-20-2004 10:30 PM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
Buz,
It strikes me as being a very primitive blood thing. For primitive man to believe this makes sense. But given what we know now of the great sophistication of the function of the universe I am amazed that moderns would hold this as an accurate description of the source of the universe, but of course they do.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 08-20-2004 10:30 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 12:32 AM lfen has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 22 of 150 (135862)
08-21-2004 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
08-21-2004 12:00 AM


Buddhism simply ignores the sin problem
Would you define what you mean by "the sin problem"?
If you mean the problem of people acting selfishly, hurtfully, and wrongfully to one another Buddhism certainly addresses those issues. The eight fold path addresses moral behaviour and the doctrine of karma addresses the consequences of injurious behaviour.
Shakyamuni, the alleged Biddah abandoned his wife and child
She was a princess, his son a prince they were very well taken care of and later met with him for teaching.
And what is an alleged Biddah?
Do you know what the word Buddha means?
According to the Voice of the Martyrs, there is some persecution of Christians who practice and teach Christianity in some Buddhist nations.
And by common sense some where in the world there is some persecution of one religion by another of some general sort taking place sometimes to some people. Have you by any chance specific charges?
Buz, I will tell you your attitude in this post is what disgusted me with christianity and why I walked away from it years ago. You are arrogantly dismissive of what you don't even have knowledge of and happily embrace ancient primitive myths that extol barbaric practises such as blood sacrifice and genocide as if they had sublime meaning.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 08-21-2004 12:00 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 23 of 150 (135865)
08-21-2004 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
08-21-2004 12:32 AM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
Only a few.
Come to think of it I've no idea of numbers or relatively percentages.
This forum is a self selection so offers a skewed sample.
I don't know if polls are very accurate or not.
I hope you are right.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 08-21-2004 12:32 AM jar has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 29 of 150 (135947)
08-21-2004 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Christian7
08-21-2004 11:16 AM


Re: Very glad this finally got released.
But the case is, that the child of which Isaiah speaks was his own child, with which his wife or his mistress was then pregnant; for he says in the next chapter, (Is. viii. 2), "And I took unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the Priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah; and I went unto the Prophetess, and she conceived and bear a son and he says, at ver. 18 of the same chapter, "Behold I and the children whom the Lord hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel."
It may not be improper here to observe, that the word translated a virgin in Isaiah, does not signify a virgin in Hebrew, but merely a 'young woman.' The tense is also falsified in the translation. Levi gives the Hebrew text of Isaiah vii. 14, and the translation in English with it -- "Behold a young woman is with child and beareth a son;" [NOTE: A Defence of the Old Testament." By David Levi. London, 1797. -- Editor.] The expression, says he, is in the present tense. This translation agrees with the other circumstances related of the birth of this child which was to be a sign to Ahaz. But as the true translation could not have been imposed upon the world as a prophecy of a child to be born seven hundred years afterwards, the christian translators have falsified the original: and instead of making Isaiah to say, behold a young woman is with child and beareth a son, they have made him to say, "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son. It is, however, only necessary for a person to read Isaiah vii. and viii., and he will be convinced that the passage in question is no prophecy of the person called Jesus Christ.
Thomas Paine
The full text of critique can be found here:
Thomas Paine Examine Prophecies » Internet Infidels
Thomas Paine is addressing the claims of OT prophesy made by the authors of the New Testament.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Christian7, posted 08-21-2004 11:16 AM Christian7 has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4699 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 55 of 150 (136609)
08-24-2004 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Aurelie
08-24-2004 4:13 PM


Re: God displeased with sacrifice?
The passage alluded to by Matthew, for as a quotation it is false, is in Isaiah, liii, 4, which is as follows: "Surely he [the person of whom Isaiah is speaking] hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows." It is in the preter tense.
Here is nothing about casting out devils, nor curing of sicknesses. The passage, therefore, so far from being a prophecy of Christ, is not even applicable as a circumstance.
Isaiah, or at least the writer of the book that bears his name, employs the whole of this chapter, liii, in lamenting the sufferings of some deceased persons, of whom he speaks very pathetically. It is a monody on the death of a friend; but he mentions not the name of the person, nor gives any circumstance of him by which he can be personally known; and it is this silence, which is evidence of nothing, that Matthew has laid hold of, to put the name of Christ to it; as if the chiefs of the Jews, whose sorrows were then great, and the times they lived in big with danger, were never thinking about their own affairs, nor the fate of their own friends, but were continually running a wild-goose chase into futurity.
To make a monody into a prophecy is an absurdity. The characters and circumstances of men, even in the different ages of the world, are so much alike, that what is said of one may with propriety be said of many; but this fitness does not make the passage into a prophecy; and none but an imposter, or a bigot, would call it so.
Isaiah, in deploring the hard fate and loss of his friend, mentions nothing of him but what the human lot of man is subject to. All the cases he states of him, his persecutions, his imprisonment, his patience in suffering, and his perseverance in principle, are all within the line of nature; they belong exclusively to none, and may with justness be said of many.
But if Jesus Christ was the person the Church represents him to be, that which would exclusively apply to him must be something that could not apply to any other person; something beyond the line of nature, something beyond the lot of mortal man; and there are no such expressions in this chapter, nor any other chapter in the Old Testament.
It is no exclusive description to say of a person, as is said of the person Isaiah is lamenting in this chapter, He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before his shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. This may be said of thousands of persons, who have suffered oppressions and unjust death with patience, silence, and perfect resignation.
Grotius, whom the Bishop [of Llandaff] esteems a most learned man, and who certainly was so, supposes that the person of whom Isaiah is speaking, is Jeremiah. Grotius is led into this opinion from the agreement there is between the description given by Isaiah and the case of Jeremiah, as stated in the book that bears his name.
If Jeremiah was an innocent man, and not a traitor in the interest of Nebuchadnezzar when Jerusalem was besieged, his case was hard; he was accused by his countrymen, was persecuted, oppressed, and imprisoned, and he says of himself, (see Jer. xi. 19) "But as for me I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter."
I should be inclined to the same opinion with Grotius, had Isaiah lived at the time when Jeremiah underwent the cruelties of which he speaks; but Isaiah died about fifty years before; and it is of a person of his own time whose case Isaiah is lamenting in the chapter in question, and which imposition and bigotry, more than seven hundred years afterwards, perverted into a prophecy of a person they call Jesus Christ.
OLD TESTAMENT "PROPHESIES" OF JESUS PROVEN FALSE I--Thomas Paine
http://www.deism.com/paine_essay03.htm
I don't know if Thomas Paine was the first to write of the way the author of the Gospel of Matthew claimed as prophecy of Jesus passages from the OT that on examination are something else entirely, but he has done a very clear methodically job of debunking those claims.
I've yet to find an apologist who point by point offers a refutation of Paine's criticism.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Aurelie, posted 08-24-2004 4:13 PM Aurelie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 08-25-2004 4:55 AM lfen has not replied

  
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