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Author Topic:   Are we prisoners of sin
Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 175 of 454 (505200)
04-08-2009 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Cedre
04-08-2009 8:20 AM


Re: The Truth Will Set You Free in deed!
Purpledawn you have no evidence to argue that what Paul taught isn’t what Christ taught
yes, she has! It's called the synoptic gospels: Matt, Mark & Luke. If you read them you'll find that Jesus never taught he was an atonement sacrifice, never taught about the original sin affecting future generations and never taught about the need to have faith in the notion of himself as a means of absolving past and future sins. Paul introduced all that, not Jesus. Don't you guys read your bibles?
Paul was called by Christ himself
No he wasn't! He just said he was.
Jesus himself promised that he would send us (Christians) the Holy Spirit, also known as the Spirit of Truth
maybe, but he failed to tell us (and his disciples) that a few years after his death there would be the need for a new person -one who had never even met Jesus- to come and tell us about all these other doctrines that Jesus had clearly forgotten about
Good job the Spirit of Truth is there to fill in the gaps, eh?!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Cedre, posted 04-08-2009 8:20 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Peg, posted 04-09-2009 4:27 AM Legend has replied
 Message 182 by Cedre, posted 04-09-2009 5:37 AM Legend has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 200 of 454 (505308)
04-10-2009 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by Peg
04-09-2009 4:27 AM


Re: The Truth Will Set You Free in deed!
Not all that Jesus taught was penned in the gospels. They are not a word for word account of everything he ever said.
You're saying that the one and only God who sent his only Son to die in order to save mankind failed to ensure that all of his teachings were captured in the sole accounts of his ministry?! So Jesus realised later on that were a few things about sin and stuff that weren't written down, slapped his forehead and said "dear God, how did I miss that? Hey Paul matey, come here a minute I've got a favout to ask" ?!
But what proved that Paul and the other Apostles wrote under inspiration is that they were given the holy spirit and given powers and miracles which proved that they were working with Gods spirit and not their own.
Powers and miracles were also given to Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Joseph Smith and a number of Indian gurus, amongst others. I take it then that you consider all those people to have been working with Gods spirit, just like Paul and the Apostles, right?!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Peg, posted 04-09-2009 4:27 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Peg, posted 04-10-2009 6:55 AM Legend has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 201 of 454 (505310)
04-10-2009 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Cedre
04-09-2009 5:37 AM


Re: The Truth Will Set You Free in deed!
Who gave you the idea that if it isn't written in the synoptic gospels it isn't inspired, if the rest of the new testament isn't inspired of God then it wouldn't have been included in the bible now would it?
But the bible wasn't compiled by God - it was compiled by men. Actually there are many bibles, though probably the one you worship was compiled by the council of Nicea, 4th century AD, about 300 years after Jesus's death. So because something is in the bible doesn't mean it's inspired, it just means some bishops decided it should be there!
Because the earliest Christians even the apostles had accepted Paul's teaching even his correction, and what is more the original disciples and Paul did correspond and even meet, they even got to here Paul’s teachings and had he preached something differently from what the disciples had been taught by Christ they would immediately have said so but they did no such thing
Not true, they did disagree with Paul, some of them vehemently! Haven't you read James, Jesus's own brother? He explicitly declared that deeds and actions are the mechanism of salvation and NOT faith only, in a deliberate and direct contradiction to Paul's statements. He not only made his point, but went so far as to use the exact same words as Paul, in the exact same sequence and syntax, using the same scriptural references and examples.
What's more the many great miracles that Paul had done in view of others and the unexplained things that had happened to him on his journey surviving a fateful storm surviving a snake bite that ought to have killed him right on the spot, more to the point that he had not taken any antidote to reverse its effects. He did many more great things in the name of the lord, he casted demons out and healed the sick brought the dead back to live. All of this demonstrates that Paul was indeed called into ministry by Christ Jesus.
Here are instances where Jesus himself talked directly from heaven to Paul: Act 22:18 and saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem; because they will not receive of thee testimony concerning me.; Act 22:21 And he said unto me, Depart: for I will send thee forth far hence unto the Gentiles.
LOL! Have you ever thought about how many people in the world claim that God talks to them and that unexplained things happen to them? How many people claim that they've seen or performed miracles? Following your reasoning, they're all working for God and we should start following their teachings!
This is no evidence, just wishful thinking on your behalf!

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Cedre, posted 04-09-2009 5:37 AM Cedre has not replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 203 of 454 (505313)
04-10-2009 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Peg
04-10-2009 6:55 AM


Re: The Truth Will Set You Free in deed!
Jesus didnt write anything down and nothing was written down until after his death.
That doesn't address my point. You claimed that not all that Jesus taught was penned in the gospels. I counter-claimed that this would nullify the whole purpose of Jesus's life. If Jesus came to die in order to redeem us why didn't he say so himself? Why did he wait for years later for another man (who didn't even know Jesus and who is never mentioned by Jesus) to make this, most important teaching of Jesus's ministry? It's just absurd. It's making Jesus/God to be some kind of forgetful, make-it-up-as-we-go-along charlatan.
Simon Magus was a practicer of magical arts, something the scriptures condemn, Apollonius believed in a multitude of different gods and Smith's church doest teach the bible, they follow Smith's book... so I dont think any of them can be said to be doing what is required of a follower of Jesus
Again, you're not addressing my point. You claimed that:
quote:
But what proved that Paul and the other Apostles wrote under inspiration is that they were given the holy spirit and given powers and miracles
so I'm saying that there are many other people throughout the ages who were given powers and miracles, therefore by your reasoning they were inspired by God. Whether they believe in your God or not is neither here nor there, if anything it's something that should get you thinking about the validity of your beliefs. If there is only one God and he gives powers and miracles to people who don't even believe in him then maybe you should reconsider your stance. Ofcourse there could be many Gods, each granting power and miracles to their followers.
Either way,you must surely concede that performing miracles doesn't qualify one as inspired by the NT God.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Peg, posted 04-10-2009 6:55 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Peg, posted 04-10-2009 7:34 AM Legend has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 245 of 454 (505493)
04-12-2009 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Peg
04-10-2009 7:34 AM


Re: The Truth Will Set You Free in deed!
He did say so himself. Matthew, Mark and John wrote accounts about the 'lords evening meal' where jesus handed around bread and wine and said: ....'Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my '"blood of the covenant"' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins..."
Actually the "forgiveness of sins" bit is added only in Matthew and is widely acknowledged as redactional. There are many accounts of Jesus preaching to crowds in the synoptics, including the Sermon on the Mount -arguably his longest sermon to his largest audience- and not once does Jesus feel the need to mention the 'atonement sacrifice' idea. Given that, as you believe, this was the lynchpin of his very existence on earth, you would have thought that this teaching would have come up at least once (and more than just a reference in passing) in the three separate accounts of his ministry.
However, there are other supernatural beings (satan & demons) who also possess power. They can give this power to anyone they choose. So while I agree that others may possess a power, it does not mean that God is the source of that power.
This raises the interesting question of "how can you tell which is which?" If there is indeed a Satan who possesses great power and opposes God what better way for him to discredit Jesus by sending a born-again miracle worker to 'complement' and 'spread' the word of Jesus?
This is why the bible condemns divination, sorcery and witchery...... This is also why the apostle John said ": "Do not believe every inspired expression...Test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God." at 1 John 4:1
And how exactly can you tell whether something originates with God? - let me guess: if it's found in the bible then it's God's, if not then it's sorcery and witchery. Sorry, but that's a bad case of circular reasoning if I ever saw one.
At the end of the day many people from different backgrounds and religions have been claimed to perform miracles and there's no way you can tell which ones are God-inspired and which ones aren't. This applies to Paul as much as to anyone else.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Peg, posted 04-10-2009 7:34 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Peg, posted 04-12-2009 11:05 PM Legend has replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 257 of 454 (505530)
04-13-2009 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Peg
04-12-2009 10:23 PM


Re: God's Law(s)
Joseph Smith was not one of Jesus Apostles.
Neither was Paul.
He introduced teachings that are contrary to Christian teachings
So did Paul, if by Christian teachings you mean Jesus' teachings.
So there were no eye witnesses to the event that he [Joseph Smith] claims to have happened to him.
Neither did Paul have any eye witnesses to the event he claims happened to him.
Yet to choose to believe one and not the other. Why the double standards?
BTW, Smith did actually provide eye witness testimony for the golden plates, 8 witnesses IIRC, although most of them recanted later. That's still more than Paul managed.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Peg, posted 04-12-2009 10:23 PM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Peg, posted 04-13-2009 8:21 AM Legend has not replied

Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 259 of 454 (505533)
04-13-2009 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Peg
04-12-2009 11:05 PM


Re: The Truth Will Set You Free in deed!
The New Testament of full of this Christian teaching. there are multiple occurrences of their understanding of Christs sacrifice and how that sacrificed removed the need for the Mosaic law and how it formed the basis of approach to God and forgiveness of sins.
The NT is full of Pauline theology (as your references attest) which proclaims the atonement sacrifice of Jesus. What I've been saying all along is that Jesus himself, in the three direct accounts of his ministry, doesn't teach this doctrine or even brings it up, apart from the one brief instance you mentioned which is clearly a redaction. In fact, when directly and explictly asked what one needs to do to gain eternal life Jesus doesn't say "have faith in me for I'll die for your sins", he says "love God and your neighbour as yourself". Jesus not teaching such rubbish actually makes a lot of sense, as he was a devout Jew preaching to other Jews and the idea of Him as an atonement sacrifice is ridiculous on a number of levels, from a Jewish perspective.
but the Apostle Paul explained that these gifts would pass away once they were no longer needed. "Whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with." 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.
That's just self-fulfilling prophecy. You believe Paul to be empowered by God because he says he's the last one to perform miracles ?! This could equally be claimed by anyone at any time. It means absolutely nothing.

"We must respect the law, not let it blind us away from the basic principles of fairness, justice and freedom"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Peg, posted 04-12-2009 11:05 PM Peg has not replied

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