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Author | Topic: Are we prisoners of sin | |||||||||||||||||||
Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Agreed Coragyps. Indeed, Cedre seems to have all the information he needs to realise this. If he defines sin as
quote: then it should be obvious that someone who doesn't believe in gods will not believe in sin.
quote: This is especially counter-productive when some of the things that the Bible decries as sinful are almost inevitable (covetousness) or even positive when not practised to excess (pride). Mutate and Survive "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
quote: No-one is trying to discuss the existence of gods. Coragyps and I are merely pointing out that someone who does not believe in gods will not believe in sin. Surely this is obvious?
quote: Oh. Apparently it's not obvious. Let me spell it out; I don't believe in sin.
quote: Soooo... You are the expert on what I think and if I say that I don't think what you think I think, I'm wrong, because you know best what I think and don't think. I have no idea what I think. I only think I do. Does that not strike you as a trifle arrogant? Let's see how you like it. You think that 2+2=5, that Hitler was a swell guy and slavery is a virtue. You are also a devout Muslim. If you claim not to believe any of this, you are wrong. I know that you believe it, because I said that you did. QED Annoying isn't it? I'll cut you a deal; if you don't tell me what I think, I'll extend the same courtesy to you. Okay?
quote: I agree that a sense of right and wrong are pretty much universal, but the actual details of what is considered right and what is considered wrong differ from culture to culture and from person to person. The Bible does indeed attempt to shed light on what is right and wrong, but there will always be those who disagree with some of its teachings on such matters. Those of us who do not regard the Bible as an authority are free to make our own judgements about its morality or lack thereof. Mutate and Survive "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
quote: The Bible is far from clear or unadulterated.
quote: Have you even read the damn Bible? It contains quite a few bloodbaths, most at the behest of your "loving" god. Go and re-read the OT, because you seem to have missed a few bits. Whilst you're at it, you might like to pick up a history book or two. Mutate and Survive "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Granny writes: The Bible is far from clear or unadulterated. Cedre writes: Supply the proof for you claim. Again, you might try actually reading it. A brief perusal of Genesis 1 and 2 should suffice. The two creation myths are contradictory, a result of their redaction from separate sources. Of course, you will deny this and in the process, ignore over a century of biblical scholarship, but this is not really the topic of this thread. If you insist upon pursuing it, you might like to start by providing evidence for your own claim that the Bible is unadulterated.
quote: I do not need to prove that any Old Testament massacre was unjust. Your claim, if I must remind you, was that biblical teaching has never related in a bloodbath, indeed that it could never result in a bloodbath. This is proved false by the Bible itself. There are many massacres mentioned in the text and they were often directly commanded by God. Whether you consider them just or unjust is beside the point. Christian teachings have caused bloodbaths. Or are you going to claim that the crusades were not influenced by Christianity?
quote: How charming. God commands his followers to murder all of those evil sinful children.
Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: Ezekial 9:6 Nice. Very morally uplifting. Exactly what sins can children have committed? Only a depraved monster could conceive of executing children. No civilised country executes children. Your evil god cannot even match the morality of his supposed creations. I find that rather pathetic, although not as pathetic as I find your apologies for such crimes.
quote: So your defence of Christianity is that it is not as bad as Nazism? That is not an especially high standard to aspire to.
quote: 1) Their actions did indeed contradict the message of love in the Bible. They did not however, contradict the equally clear message to kill infidels;
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Deuteronomy 13:6-10 This is not what I would call clarity. Love your enemy. Kill your enemy. If this is clarity, I would hate to think how God's word would read if it were muddled. 2) If the misdeeds of Christianity cannot be blamed on Christianity, then by the same token, the good deeds of Christians cannot be attributed too Christianity. You cannot have it both ways.
quote: Go read a damn Bible Cedre. Mutate and Survive "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Hi Coragyps,
That statement is bad enough, but to place after the sentence "God is not a contradiction." is simply hilarious. Mutate and Survive "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Why do you insist on lying about the Bible?
quote: 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus Need I go on? The Bible is a litany of cruelty and violence. There are many examples where it encourages violence. You must be well aware of this. Either that, or you have never bothered to read your own holy book, a surprisingly common occurrence amongst Christians in my experience.
quote: Please explain how failure to observe the Sabbath is deserving of execution.
quote: A classic attempt to have one's cake and eat it. When people do something good in the name of the Bible, the Bible takes the credit. When people do something evil in the name of the Bible, they have misunderstood it. This despite the fact that the text clearly calls for the murder of heathens and such.
Cedre writes: Granny writes: Christian teachings have caused bloodbaths. Or are you going to claim that the crusades were not influenced by Christianity? Yes I will claim exactly that. Then you have lost your tiny mind. I consider the above statement to be such a retreat into absurdity that it is sufficient to refute your entire argument. Claim that the crusaders were influenced by greed by all means, no-one here is going to disagree. But to claim that Christianity played absolutely no part in their motivations? Pathetic. The First Crusade was an attempt to claim the "Holy Land". If not for Christianity, this rather unpromising terrain would never have been a bone of contention. Your eagerness to rewrite history is disgraceful.
quote: And here we have the twisted heart of your sick philosophy. We are not prisoners of sin, we are prisoners of your nasty little tyrant god. The morality of such conduct escapes me. To any neutral observer, this would be described as despotism.
quote: Classic "might makes right" thinking, if it can be described as thinking at all.
quote: Or to put it another way, God has deliberately created humankind to be sinful, then when they inevitably sin, he throws a childish temper tantrum and engages in an eternal collective punishment, complete with arbitrary penalties to be visited upon generation after generation of innocents. You have completely failed to point to any immoral act committed by any child, so I can only conclude that their categorisation as "sinful" is wholly arbitrary and ethically flawed. That leaves your god a child abusing monster.
quote: Hooray! The old God-moves-in-mysterious-ways defence. Pathetic. To resort to this shoddy argument is an admission of intellectual poverty. You have no argument and so you must resort to hand-waving.
quote: Oh really? Care to provide the scriptural backing for that? Even if this is the case, the sensible thing to do would be to remove such egregious filth from the text, but of course, the Bible's status as a holy text prevents such sensible moves. I notice as well that Christians are quite content to pick and choose from the OT, keeping those bits that agree with their biases, and excoriating others. This is not clarity. this is a recipe for disaster. If you are going to insist that the nasty bits of OT law are irrelevant, then the whole is irrelevant.
quote: So you need not live by the law, yet you must live by it. You really are hilarious. Do you ever bother to read your posts back to yourself? If you did, you might find it easier to avoid such glaring contradictions.
Cedre writes: Granny writes: If the misdeeds of Christianity cannot be blamed on Christianity, then by the same token, the good deeds of Christians cannot be attributed too Christianity. You cannot have it both ways. The bible does encourage good works even in the Old Testament so why not. You really can't see the lack of logic in this approach? Wow. You are simply looking at the results of each action and ascribing the blame or credit accordingly. Good result? Yay! The Bible gets the credit! Bad result? Well of course, the Bible can't be to blame. In the real world, life is not this simplistic. Sometimes the Bible has a good influence (Yes, I am saying that the Bible does, sometimes have a good influence. Note that and learn some honesty). Sometimes it has a bad influence. Mostly it is mixed. Cause and effect are not as simplistic as you would like to portray them I'm afraid.
quote: I simply disagree with the implicit claim that sin is equal to immorality. If your god displayed any understanding of ethics or morality at all, it might be desirable that he punish the immoral. Instead you claim that he visits his "punishments" upon infants, whether they have committed immoral acts or not. That removes from him any right to sit in judgement over others. Indeed, he should be pointing the finger at himself. Mutate and Survive Edited by Granny Magda, : Fixed quote attributions. "The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
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