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Author Topic:   Are we prisoners of sin
Granny Magda
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Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 4 of 454 (504582)
03-31-2009 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Coragyps
03-31-2009 9:38 AM


Agreed Coragyps. Indeed, Cedre seems to have all the information he needs to realise this. If he defines sin as
quote:
a transgression of God's will, missing the mark set up by God
then it should be obvious that someone who doesn't believe in gods will not believe in sin.
quote:
That Calvinist BS about humans being "terribly sinful creatures" is nothing but counterproductive to thr rational person who is trying to live a decent life.
This is especially counter-productive when some of the things that the Bible decries as sinful are almost inevitable (covetousness) or even positive when not practised to excess (pride).
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Coragyps, posted 03-31-2009 9:38 AM Coragyps has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 8 of 454 (504595)
03-31-2009 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Cedre
03-31-2009 10:28 AM


quote:
Well not beleiving in God is irrelevant to this thread I'm here to discuss sin and not God's existence.
No-one is trying to discuss the existence of gods. Coragyps and I are merely pointing out that someone who does not believe in gods will not believe in sin. Surely this is obvious?
quote:
you will not deny that deep down you do believe that sin exists
Oh. Apparently it's not obvious. Let me spell it out; I don't believe in sin.
quote:
You will deny again, but that doesn't bother me.
Soooo... You are the expert on what I think and if I say that I don't think what you think I think, I'm wrong, because you know best what I think and don't think. I have no idea what I think. I only think I do.
Does that not strike you as a trifle arrogant? Let's see how you like it.
You think that 2+2=5, that Hitler was a swell guy and slavery is a virtue. You are also a devout Muslim. If you claim not to believe any of this, you are wrong. I know that you believe it, because I said that you did. QED
Annoying isn't it? I'll cut you a deal; if you don't tell me what I think, I'll extend the same courtesy to you. Okay?
quote:
At this point knowing that right and wrong exists is a universal feeling, the bible simply sheds light on what is right and what is wrong.
I agree that a sense of right and wrong are pretty much universal, but the actual details of what is considered right and what is considered wrong differ from culture to culture and from person to person. The Bible does indeed attempt to shed light on what is right and wrong, but there will always be those who disagree with some of its teachings on such matters. Those of us who do not regard the Bible as an authority are free to make our own judgements about its morality or lack thereof.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Cedre, posted 03-31-2009 10:28 AM Cedre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Peg, posted 04-03-2009 5:31 AM Granny Magda has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 280 of 454 (505617)
04-14-2009 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Cedre
04-14-2009 7:46 AM


Re: God's Law(s)
quote:
Explain these dangers as it relates to the clear unadulterated message in the Christian bible
The Bible is far from clear or unadulterated.
quote:
Tell me how can this virtuous and pure teaching ever end up in a bloodbath.
Have you even read the damn Bible? It contains quite a few bloodbaths, most at the behest of your "loving" god. Go and re-read the OT, because you seem to have missed a few bits. Whilst you're at it, you might like to pick up a history book or two.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Cedre, posted 04-14-2009 7:46 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Cedre, posted 04-14-2009 8:30 AM Granny Magda has replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 293 of 454 (505635)
04-14-2009 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 283 by Cedre
04-14-2009 8:30 AM


Re: God's Law(s)
Granny writes:
The Bible is far from clear or unadulterated.
Cedre writes:
Supply the proof for you claim.
Again, you might try actually reading it. A brief perusal of Genesis 1 and 2 should suffice. The two creation myths are contradictory, a result of their redaction from separate sources.
Of course, you will deny this and in the process, ignore over a century of biblical scholarship, but this is not really the topic of this thread. If you insist upon pursuing it, you might like to start by providing evidence for your own claim that the Bible is unadulterated.
quote:
God carrying out justice upon sinful nations may seem like a bloodbath to you and unjust, but it really isn’t.
I do not need to prove that any Old Testament massacre was unjust. Your claim, if I must remind you, was that biblical teaching has never related in a bloodbath, indeed that it could never result in a bloodbath.
This is proved false by the Bible itself. There are many massacres mentioned in the text and they were often directly commanded by God. Whether you consider them just or unjust is beside the point.
Christian teachings have caused bloodbaths. Or are you going to claim that the crusades were not influenced by Christianity?
quote:
Now God is angered by sin, and eventually he will put a stop to it, all of it in due time. But also know that the wage of sin is death. This is a law, no one escapes it. And that is exactly what these sinful nations had secured for themselves by their sinning.
How charming. God commands his followers to murder all of those evil sinful children.
Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women:
Ezekial 9:6
Nice. Very morally uplifting.
Exactly what sins can children have committed? Only a depraved monster could conceive of executing children. No civilised country executes children. Your evil god cannot even match the morality of his supposed creations. I find that rather pathetic, although not as pathetic as I find your apologies for such crimes.
quote:
Now about the bloody history of Christianity which really is a molehill compared to the atrocities that people committed under such banners as social Darwinism, Nazism etc and the world wars.
So your defence of Christianity is that it is not as bad as Nazism? That is not an especially high standard to aspire to.
quote:
Regarding this bloody history of Christianity, we cannot really hold the bible or Christ accountable for what these Christian renegades committed in the name of Christianity, because their acts are in direct opposition to the clear message of loving your enemies taught by the bible.
1) Their actions did indeed contradict the message of love in the Bible. They did not however, contradict the equally clear message to kill infidels;
13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
13:7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deuteronomy 13:6-10
This is not what I would call clarity. Love your enemy. Kill your enemy. If this is clarity, I would hate to think how God's word would read if it were muddled.
2) If the misdeeds of Christianity cannot be blamed on Christianity, then by the same token, the good deeds of Christians cannot be attributed too Christianity.
You cannot have it both ways.
quote:
It is not right to blame Christianity for some of the actions committed by its followers because it doesn’t teach or instruct or even encourage these actions .
Go read a damn Bible Cedre.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by Cedre, posted 04-14-2009 8:30 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Cedre, posted 04-20-2009 10:51 AM Granny Magda has replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 295 of 454 (505637)
04-14-2009 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 294 by Coragyps
04-14-2009 11:49 AM


Re: God's Law(s)
Hi Coragyps,
That statement is bad enough, but to place after the sentence "God is not a contradiction." is simply hilarious.
Mutate and Survive

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by Coragyps, posted 04-14-2009 11:49 AM Coragyps has not replied

Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 349 of 454 (505948)
04-20-2009 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Cedre
04-20-2009 10:51 AM


Re: God's Law(s)
Why do you insist on lying about the Bible?
quote:
The bible doesn’t teach independently that we should kill others.
31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Exodus
Need I go on? The Bible is a litany of cruelty and violence. There are many examples where it encourages violence. You must be well aware of this. Either that, or you have never bothered to read your own holy book, a surprisingly common occurrence amongst Christians in my experience.
quote:
But it encourages us to preserve life until death is required, like in the case of capital punishment, protecting innocent lives, self defense and the like.
Please explain how failure to observe the Sabbath is deserving of execution.
quote:
When bloodbaths did occur this was God’s wrath coming upon sinful nations and tribes. So if one should read the bible carefully and understand it as he/she should then a bloodbath will never suggest itself. People sometimes have killed in the name of God but this is because they misread the bible, and hence it doesn’t say anything on what the bible teaches.
A classic attempt to have one's cake and eat it. When people do something good in the name of the Bible, the Bible takes the credit. When people do something evil in the name of the Bible, they have misunderstood it. This despite the fact that the text clearly calls for the murder of heathens and such.
Cedre writes:
Granny writes:
Christian teachings have caused bloodbaths. Or are you going to claim that the crusades were not influenced by Christianity?
Yes I will claim exactly that.
Then you have lost your tiny mind.
I consider the above statement to be such a retreat into absurdity that it is sufficient to refute your entire argument. Claim that the crusaders were influenced by greed by all means, no-one here is going to disagree. But to claim that Christianity played absolutely no part in their motivations? Pathetic.
The First Crusade was an attempt to claim the "Holy Land". If not for Christianity, this rather unpromising terrain would never have been a bone of contention. Your eagerness to rewrite history is disgraceful.
quote:
God created mankind and he has power over their lives, he gives life and he can take it away at will if he sees the need to do so.
And here we have the twisted heart of your sick philosophy. We are not prisoners of sin, we are prisoners of your nasty little tyrant god. The morality of such conduct escapes me. To any neutral observer, this would be described as despotism.
quote:
Whether you agree with this or not God still has the final word concerning everything.
Classic "might makes right" thinking, if it can be described as thinking at all.
quote:
Now about the children, what sins have they committed? You ask. Well all flesh is sinful due to Adam’s original sin and the wages of sin is death.
Or to put it another way, God has deliberately created humankind to be sinful, then when they inevitably sin, he throws a childish temper tantrum and engages in an eternal collective punishment, complete with arbitrary penalties to be visited upon generation after generation of innocents.
You have completely failed to point to any immoral act committed by any child, so I can only conclude that their categorisation as "sinful" is wholly arbitrary and ethically flawed. That leaves your god a child abusing monster.
quote:
Again owning infinite knowledge God can see the end from the start, he knows why he embarks on certain courses of action and frowns upon others, He is all-knowing, and I’m afraid with your finite human knowledge that you have, you won’t always grasp all His actions.
Hooray! The old God-moves-in-mysterious-ways defence. Pathetic. To resort to this shoddy argument is an admission of intellectual poverty. You have no argument and so you must resort to hand-waving.
quote:
Don’t rush to conclusions my dear, this kind of enforcing of the law was was handed down to the Israelites its application began and ended with the Israelites.
Oh really? Care to provide the scriptural backing for that?
Even if this is the case, the sensible thing to do would be to remove such egregious filth from the text, but of course, the Bible's status as a holy text prevents such sensible moves.
I notice as well that Christians are quite content to pick and choose from the OT, keeping those bits that agree with their biases, and excoriating others. This is not clarity. this is a recipe for disaster. If you are going to insist that the nasty bits of OT law are irrelevant, then the whole is irrelevant.
quote:
Christians however have been taught grace and what to means to love their enemy. We are not free from the law in the sense that we shouldn’t live by it anymore, we should live by it but by accepting God’s gift of eternal life we have escaped death and hell, which is the penalty for breaking God’s law.
So you need not live by the law, yet you must live by it. You really are hilarious. Do you ever bother to read your posts back to yourself? If you did, you might find it easier to avoid such glaring contradictions.
Cedre writes:
Granny writes:
If the misdeeds of Christianity cannot be blamed on Christianity, then by the same token, the good deeds of Christians cannot be attributed too Christianity. You cannot have it both ways.
The bible does encourage good works even in the Old Testament so why not.
You really can't see the lack of logic in this approach? Wow.
You are simply looking at the results of each action and ascribing the blame or credit accordingly. Good result? Yay! The Bible gets the credit! Bad result? Well of course, the Bible can't be to blame.
In the real world, life is not this simplistic. Sometimes the Bible has a good influence (Yes, I am saying that the Bible does, sometimes have a good influence. Note that and learn some honesty). Sometimes it has a bad influence. Mostly it is mixed. Cause and effect are not as simplistic as you would like to portray them I'm afraid.
quote:
For some reason you probably think that punishing sinners is not a good work, well, why not? Sinners are lawbreakers in God’s eyes, and punishing lawbreakers is a good thing, it is a noble act. Imagine if no lawbreaker was ever corrected for his lawless act, what world would we have been living in, simply recognizing what is moral is not enough we need to be able to protect morality and punish immorality. So God is doing a good thing when he punishes lawbreakers for their lawlessness.
I simply disagree with the implicit claim that sin is equal to immorality. If your god displayed any understanding of ethics or morality at all, it might be desirable that he punish the immoral. Instead you claim that he visits his "punishments" upon infants, whether they have committed immoral acts or not. That removes from him any right to sit in judgement over others. Indeed, he should be pointing the finger at himself.
Mutate and Survive
Edited by Granny Magda, : Fixed quote attributions.

"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Cedre, posted 04-20-2009 10:51 AM Cedre has not replied

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