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| Author | Topic: Are we prisoners of sin | |||||||||||||||||||
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3121 days)  Posts: 1548 Joined: |
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3121 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3121 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3121 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
DevilsAdvocate, i really dont want to debate about other religions. You are the one who first brought it up in your rebuttal to Legend as shown here: Message 200 Peg writes: ...and Smith's church doest teach the bible, they follow Smith's book and
Peg writes: I can assure you that I am informed. I have talked with Mormons on several occasions and they do not use the bible. They use the book of Mormon. I havnt met one yet who carried a bible with them. If you do not want to debate about it, why did you bring it up in the first place? Sounds like you can't handle constructive critism and can't stand to be wrong. Just admit you were wrong, own up to it and move on. I make mistakes all the time and have several times admited I was wrong even on EvC. If you can prove me wrong, I will concede and move on to something else.
The books of the Christian Greek sciptures are the writings of the Apostles and 1century congregation, so they should be the foundation of Christian belief. The first part of your assertion is subject to critique (no one is 100% sure the authenticity of all the authors who wrote the books of the NT). This is a subject for another thread.
Peg writes: As soon as anyone creates their own book, especially one that contradicts the bible, it has to be questioned. I thought you did not want to debate about 'other' religions? And how do you know all the books of the Bible belong in the Bible? And what about the inconsistencies and contradictions within the Bible itself? So should you not question all the books from which the Bible itself is composed? Should it not be held to the same standard as you do other religious books i.e. the Book of Mormon?
Joseph Smith was not one of Jesus Apostles. BTW, neither was Paul considered an Jesus' apostle by Jesus (and no one but himself witnessed his conversion mono e mono by Jesus). Paul/Saul was a self-acclaimed apostle (he called himself the apostle to the gentiles) and many of Jesus apostles/disciples were at first skepticle of his eyewitness story of his conversion.
Peg writes: He introduced teachings that are contrary to Christian teachings. So did Paul. The Apostle Peter disputed with Paul several times as describe in his writings i.e. Galations 2:11-14.
He also was the only eyewitness to the appearance of the Angel who apparently showed him a new scroll, afterwhich the Angel took the scroll back to heaven with him. So there were no eye witnesses to the event that he claims to have happened to him. Same with Paul. There were no eyewitnesses to his conversion by way of vision from Jesus himself (caveat, there were supposedly some servents with him, according to Paul's story, but they did not see the vision from Jesus as described in Acts 9).
Unfortunately, Joseph Smith cannot provide any eye witness testimony to the event he described. Besides that, the teaching of the Mormon church are different to christian teachings and therefore its very hard to consider them to be christian in origin. Peg, you really do need to conduct some background research before you talk about things you have little knowledge of (just enough to get you in trouble).  However, you are partially wrong (and partially right). Yes, according to his story there were no witnesses during his first few visions with Moronai, however, Joseph Smith did supposedly have "eyewitnnesses" in later visions and showings of the golden plates. First with 3 and then later with 8 witnesses as shown here:
Joseph Smith writes: Father, mother, you do not know how happy I am; the Lord has now caused the plates to be shown to three more besides myself. They have seen an angel, who has testified to them, and they will have to bear witness to the truth of what I have said, for now they know for themselves that I do not go about to deceive the people, and I feel as if I was relieved of a burden which was almost too heavy for me to bear, and it rejoices my soul that I am not any longer to be entirely alone in the world. also
Testimony of the Three Witnesses of gold plates Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. OLIVER COWDERYDAVID WHITMER MARTIN HARRIS Testimony of the Eight Witnesses of the gold plates Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it. CHRISTIAN WHITMERJACOB WHITMER PETER WHITMER, JUN. JOHN WHITMER HIRAM PAGE JOSEPH SMITH, SEN. HYRUM SMITH SAMUEL H. SMITH Too me, this is all religiously fabricated but how much of the Bible do you know is not fabricated? Cas in point, Jim Jones and his following. Why do you think that so many people still believe in miracles and send millions/billions of dollars to the likes of Benny Hinn and the like. Appeal through emotion. If you want something to be true enough it will become true for you, whether it is Christianity, Mormonism or anyother religion out there. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3121 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3121 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3121 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3121 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
Peg writes: Cedre that may be true, you may have seen it. But how can you be sure that God is its source? Apostle Paul said that powerful works were going to come to an end Sick em, Peg! I love a good Bible-thumping contest! No disrespect Peg. Have a good night For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. Dr. Carl Sagan
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3121 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
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DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3121 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
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