Are we prisoners of sin

I'm sorry, but as Rahvin just stated... you are wrong. Your refusal to accept the fact that you are wrong on such a simple and verifiable fact shows your overall regard for the acquisition of knowledge in general. I guarantee you that if I started a thread within an LDS forum asking "Do you use the Bible as a member of the LDS Church, and believe it to be an inspired work" The answers would be an overwhelming "Yes".Sorry Peg, another strike against your preconceptions.

Assuming you are right, how then to we know God or have a relationship with God? The story does serve a purpose, you know. If we scrap the blueprints, all we have left is human speculation and philosophy.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I see the link you are using to present your argument comes from a group who's statment of beliefs says...

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OCRT Statement of Belief:
We are a multi-faith group. As of 2008-FEB, we consist of one Atheist, Agnostic, Christian, Wiccan and Zen Buddhist. Thus, the OCRT staff lack agreement on almost all theological matters, such as belief in a supreme being, the nature of God, interpretation of the Bible and other holy texts, whether life after death exists, what form the afterlife may take, etc.

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If you want to understand the bible, i dont think you will find reasonable answers there.The first thing that needs to be addressed here is how Koine Greek plays a role in our understanding of scripture. In Koine Greek, the definite article (equivalent to 'THE' in english), when used, always points to a distinct identity but if no definite article is used then it is pointing to something in general.in Luke 4:3 "at this the Devil said to him..." the expression ho di.a'bo.los (the Devil) is used, thus designating a particular person because 'ho' is the definite article.wheras at John 6:70 "I chose you twelve did I not? Yet one of you is a slanderer"
the Greek word di.a'bo.los' is used to describe a bad quality that had developed in Judas Iscariot.You can see that in Luke the definite article is used. This means the slanderer here is pointing to a person...or as translated 'THE DEVIL'
In John we see that Judas is called 'A SLANDERER' in the general sense of the quality of being a slanderer.Many more scriptures use the definite article when referring to the Devil. This proves that the Devil is a distinct identity rather then a mere quality.Also, when Jesus was being tempted in the wilderness, he could not have been tempted by a mere quality of evil or his own inner evil for the Bible makes it clear that Jesus was "...guileless, undefiled, separated from the sinners..." as Hebrews 7:26 says.
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Matt 4:8'Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9and he said to him: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me"'.The temptations of Jesus would not have been real temptations if the evil was only an abstract idea._________________________Although some say that the Devil refers simply to an abstract principle of evil, the qualities and actions attributed to Satan in the Bible can be attributed only to a person. Such as him becoming angry, using crafty acts, causing trouble etc.Revelation 12:12 says "...Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time"How can an abstract idea know anything? It can't, nor would you ever need to fear an idea or hide from an idea. Also if evil was only an idea, it could not be spoken of as becoming angry over anything.
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John 8:44'YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]'Here Jesus was talking to the religious leaders. He accused them of being children of the Devil, how could he say such a thing if the devil was merely a state of being evil... He would have told them that they were 'being' evil...not that they were 'children of The Devil' You are claiming that Job is merely a fictional story. What evidence are you using to make that claim? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

I did not say that they dont recognize the bible, i said they dont use it when they are in their ministry work.Joseph Smith, Jr., stated in the Documentary History of the Church: "I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book."Should not the Bible be the keystone of Christian belief? If not, why not?

Perhaps you could explain how their beliefs differ from the bible then?

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Christianity does indeed have a legal system.
What makes you think that it does does not?

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from your link, a law is defined as:
"A rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling body"

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This is exactly what Christian laws are. They were enforced in the congregations by the older men or the overseer's of the congregations and willfull breakers of the laws were expelled in the first century. If a christian church is not doing this today one would need to ask why. If they are using the bible as their guide, then they would be.

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No Christianity does not have a legal system today. If they did you could list the laws and their penalties and there would be a judicial system to determine if the person was guilty or not.If a Christian Church is not doing this today?? If they were doing it you wouldn't have put an if. If they were doing it, you could list the laws believers are held accountable to.

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Jesus said to his diciples "Teach them to observe all the things I have commanded you." Matthew 19:17

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So obviously Jesus expected his followers to 'observe' his commandments.
To observe means to apply them. Each will apply the commands to different degrees because we all have our own set of circumstances to live with and therefore as long as a christian strives to apply the commands to the best of his ability, then God is pleased. That is all we can do and that all that is expected as is shown by Jesus illustration of the Talents at

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Matthew 25:14 "For it is just as when a man, about to travel abroad, summoned slaves of his and committed to them his belongings. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, to still another one, to each one according to his own ability..."

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In this illustration, even the one who had worked little, was commended for the little he did. It was not a sin that he did perform as well as the other disciples who did much more then he did.

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That doesn't make those unknown commands a law and no mention of penalties if those that were taught didn't follow instruction. What were all of the commands that Jesus gave the disciples?You did read the end of the talent story didn't you? The man wasn't commended. The master called him a wicked lazy servant! Although the man with one talent kept the talent safe, the master was angry and took the talent away from him. So in that story expectations weren't clearly stated and one man suffered the wrath of his master even though he did what he thought the master wanted. Not really a good story.

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Besides early copies of the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures used by Jesus’ disciples, contained God’s name in the form of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton.

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Scholar George Howard testifies to this saying "Since the Tetragram was still written in the copies of the Greek Bible [the Septuagint] which made up the Scriptures of the early church, it is reasonable to believe that the N[ew] T[estament] writers, when quoting from Scripture, preserved the Tetragram within the biblical text."

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Also think about it. If the Christians did not use the divine name, could Jesus have said "I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world" at John 17:6

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or could he have said in his model pray 'Hallowed by thy name' (Matt6)

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If your bible does not contain the name of God, you should be asking why. Perhaps read the forward in your bible...you might find it there.

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Jehovah is not God's name. No one really knows how the Hebrew Tetragrammaton is pronounced. Of course this is irrelevant to this discussion. Please don't derail. The point was when you provide a quote, don't add to it.

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As i said, the mosiac law is still Gods standard in all areas of life. But the penalties for failing to meet those laws is no longer required which is how the Mosaic law has been done away with. I apologise if I did not make that clearer in my previous post. I can see by the rest of your questions that I must not have made that point clear.

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As the definition of law from your link says that when a law is broken its is to be " prescribed penalties are enforced" In many of the Mosaic laws, the penalty was death.

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The sacrifice of the Christ paid the penalty for all mankind. This is why the Mosaic law was done away with. It was no longer a requirement of God that its penalties be enforced. Christ carried that burden for us.

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You're contradicting yourself again. If penalties are paid and therefore not carried out, then why would Churches expel people from the congregation?You do realize that a Christian caught stealing in a store or embezzling will be arrested and penalized. They will suffer the consequences. People caught doing wrong by the Church, not necessarily penalized.I know a case of Christian clergy who was caught stealing from the Church. He wasn't penalized, in fact the Elders saw no problem since he did so many good things, so he was allowed to continue as he had been; stealing. The Elders let the treasurer go instead. Elders in Churches today aren't necessarily people of experience and wisdom. Sometimes it's just a body to fill a spot.

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You are right. Perfection is not required by God.

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But it once was required under the Mosaic law. If the law was broken, the prescribed penalty would need to be applied and paid by the wrongdoer. The law Demanded perfection.

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Now though, God does not require perfection because his Son has paid the ultimate penalty of the law on our behalf. This is why we can simply ask for forgiveness of our sins, and God will forgive us on the basis of Jesus sacrifice. Although in saying that, Jesus did tell his diciples "you must accordingly be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect"

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this shows that perfection is the standard that we must strive for, even if we will not be able to reach it right now.

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Now you're back to the vague, wishy washy, conflicting Christian presentation. The law demanded obedience, not perfection. The Mosaic Law is the theocratic system of regulations which governed the nation of lsrael in every aspect of its life. Does our secular legal system demand perfection? No, it demands obedience to maintain order within a civilization and the laws change as civilization changes.Now you say that God does not require perfection since Jesus paid the penalty.

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Really? When was the last time he spoke to you?

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My husband and I can be in each others' company and not speak to each other. But to answer your question, last week. Helped me avoid a collision. God provides guidance when I need it and puts me where I need to be or where I'm needed. You have to learn how to listen.

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I think you are thinking of the scripture that says
"until the Law [given through Moses] sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law. Nevertheless, death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses, even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam." (Ro 2:12; 5:13, 14)

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Paul’s words are to be understood in context; his earlier statements in this letter to the Romans show that he was comparing those under the Mosiac Law with those not under the Mosaic law. He still showed that both classes of people were sinners when he says "Nevertheless, death ruled as king...even over those who had not sinned after the likeness of the transgression by Adam"

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or in other words, even people who did not deliberately disobey God the way that Adam had, were still dieing as a result of it.

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Now you want to look at something in context. Paul was an evangelist. IOW, a salesman. He was creating a state of mind for his audience. You do realize that death cannot rule as a king. Legal systems of the time carried death penalties. What death is Paul talking about? In Romans 6 Paul states that we died to sin. To know what constitutes a sin, one has to know what is considered right. you still haven't been able to show a clear list of what Christians are supposed to follow.I am not part of the ancient nation of Israel, so I'm not under their laws. I am not part of the ancient Roman empire, so I'm not under their laws. I am bound by the laws of my country, state, city, and community. Paul did say in Romans 13: Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.So what are the laws of Christianity or should I say principles? Are there really any real time penalties?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I would have to disagree. Mormons very much do use the Christian Bible. In fact I was talking to a LDS coworker just the other day who said that they use the Bible as much if not more in there services than they do there other "God inspired" books i.e. The Book of Mormon, The Peal of Great Price, Doctrine & Covenants etc.The believe that the Book of Mormon is just an addendum onto the original Christian Bible as shown here: They also believe that the KJV is currently the most accurate translation of the Bible and this is what they use in there church services. Usually Mormons carry both the Bible and the Book of Mormon to church.Also, the 8th LDS Article of Faith states: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."Also on the LDS website: also BTW, I have personally talked to several Mormon missionaries (I lived in Hawaii for 8 years, which has one of the highest % of LDS besides Utah) and all that I have met had a Bible as well as the BoM on them when the evangelized. Here is their mandate given by a LDS published book stipulating the LDS call to missionary service: Hmm, does this sound vagely familiar to the Christian fundamentalists call to mission work? In fact they are derived from exactly the same source. The Christian Bible.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Why are there over 33,000 denominations/sects of Christian belief (as shown here: Status of Global Mission, 2009, in the Context of 20th and 21st Centuries)?Again, because they intepret the Bible differently than you do.In addition the LDS have other sources i.e. the Book of Mormon, D&C, The Peal of Great Price and other LDS literature that skews there interpretation of Christianity and the Bible differently than yours.That's it in a nutshell.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : Correct misspelling

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

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If you want to understand the bible, i dont think you will find reasonable answers there.

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Actually they probably have more reasonable answers. They would probably lean more towards the plain text and what the author was trying to say to his audience, as opposed to defending doctrine. Continuing a discussion on the reality of Satan doesn't really add to this topic. Suffice it to say, you and I disagree.

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You are claiming that Job is merely a fictional story. What evidence are you using to make that claim?

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I've already presented that in Message 233 Ketuvim: the Ketuvim include: poetical books (Psalms, Proverbs, and Job), the Megillot, or Scrolls (Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations of Jeremiah, Ecclesiastes, and Esther), prophecy
(Daniel), and history (Ezra, Nehemiah, and I and II Chronicles).Wisdom WritingNot sure why you say merely. Fictional stories can teach, just like the parables of Jesus. Fictional doesn't make the message unimportant.What did you think it was, an autobiography?Edited by purpledawn, : Correct spelling error

Excellent post DevilsAdvocate,I could have gone through all that trouble, but I didn't feel the need. Pretty crazy when an Atheist is defending a christian faith's belief from another christian's misconception of it. lol

The only penalty for christians is expulsion from the congregation. Christianity is unlike Judaism because it does not have a crime & punishment system. As i have said 50 times previously, Christ put an end to The Law Code and its punishments. It opened the way for forgiveness of sins thru Jesus instead.So nowdays, if a christian unrepentantly commits wrong, then the congregation is to 'Remove the wicked man from among yourselves' in a similar way that God expelled Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden. (Ge 3:19, 23,24) And in the same way Cain was banished (Ge 4:11, 14,16) And the way that the angels that sinned were thrown into Tartarus, a condition of dense spiritual darkness (2Pe 2:4)_________________________________________
1Cor 5:11"But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."Titus 3:10"As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; 11knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned."Romans 16:17"Now I exhort YOU, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that YOU have learned, and avoid them."2Thessalonians 3:6"Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us."Matthew 18:15"Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."2 Thessalonians 3:14"But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. 15And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother. "
________________________________________________In all of the above scriptures the Christian punishment for error is excommunication from the congregation. Christians weren't to stone wrongdoers the way the Jews were to stone wrongdoers under the Mosaic Law.
They were to withdraw the member of the congregation and not mix with them. This is christian punishment and how a congregation should deal with an unrepentant sinner. I assume you have read the OT. Did you not read any laws in there? We also do not know exactly how Jesus name 'Yeshua' was pronounced, yet we dont have a problem using it. The tetragrammaton is all we have of Gods name. Much better that we mispronounce it then remove it from the Bible as if it were unworthy. I agree with you. Its a case of those in charge not following thru on the book they claim to teach.
True Christianity would allow such a person the opportunity to repent before any punishment was metted out. If the person did repent, then they would receive forgiveness. But if they did not, then they would have to be expelled from the congregation according to the bible. I said the mosaic law required perfection because if you failed to live by some of those commands, the punishment was death. So if you didnt want to die, you had to fullfill the law 'perfectly' not just a little bit, but completely 100%.
Many people were put to death for failing to comply. Apostasy, idolatry, adultery, fornication, eating blood, and murder were among the offenses carrying the death penalty. If you did any of these things you couldnt ask for forgiveness and mercy to be spared the death penalty. Thats why they had to fullfill the law perfectly. One slip up and they could have been put to death. I can appreciate what you are saying. Spirituality is the only means of communication we have with God and its commendable that you have it.
Have you ever wondered why God would speak with Adam personally? I've not met one person yet who has been spoken to by God in a physical sense.

I could invent my own book and claim it to be an inspired book and invent a religion and sell it to people toobut I would need to prove why my book is inspired.How do the Mormons prove this?

Typical tactic. Instead of facing the truth and admitting error, you change the subject. Admit you were wrong, and I will answer your questions.Edited by Michamus, : typo corrected

How do you know this is not similar to how Christianity was invented and evolved? It just has about a 1800 year head start on Mormanism. Wow, really Peg? I have still yet to here an adequate defense for the divine inspiration of the Bible that you claim. Pot calling the kettle, you think? The same way many other religious faiths do. Through emotional appeal, skirting around contradictions and deliberate obfuscation (many of the same tactics mainline Christiniaty uses).Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

ICANT your incredible ability to contradict yourself is matched only by your bewildering inability to recognise this when it occurs. The only words used to draw my conclusion in this discussion are your own. Yet, according to you, Adam assumed this WRONGLY because in fact no punishment at all would have occurred if Eve alone had eaten the forbidden fruit.Correct?Let us review your previous responses: So once again we must conclude that the law specified by God, the law that you claim to be so clear and unambiguous, was completely misunderstood by Adam with regard to it's application to Eve. Adam wrongly concluded this. According to your previous statements. But he would not have been without her as no punishment of Eve would have occurred if she alone had eaten the fruit. According to your previous statements. A choice made on a false conclusion. A conclusion borne from misunderstanding the application and punishment of God's single law as applied to Eve.So, according to you, the whole of human fate and man's sinful nature is a result of God's original law and it's application being wholly unclear to the original man.If this is not what you are saying then please explain how we can draw any other conclusion?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.