Are we prisoners of sin

Check out Jesus PuzzleEarl Doherty's books are very readable and delve deep into this whole subject

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

are you going to base your opinion on that one misleading opinion?

Purpledawn,
Jesus was making clear that the blindness was not the result of some specific sin on the part of the blind man or his parents. Rather, it was the result of the imperfection all of us have inherited from Adam and thus we are subject to defects such as being born blind.Jesus further words that "this happened that the work of God might be made manifest" was in reference to himself because the mans defect was an opportunity for Jesus to make manifest the works of God.
He went on and said
"We must work the works of him that sent me while it is day, The night is coming when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the world’s light." Soon Jesus’ death will prevent him from displaying the works of God, in this case, the healing work of God.So rather then God being the 'reason' for our defects, God is the 'answer' to our defects. I have showed you scripture upon scripture that prove otherwise. The OT is very clear when it comes to sin. YOu have yet to show any scriptures that prove what you are claiming.

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Psalm 51: Show me favor, O God,... wipe out my transgressions.
5Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

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when it came to sickness, the Mosaic Law stated

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Leviticus 14: 2"This will become the law of the leper in the day for establishing his purification, when he must be brought to the priest...19And the priest must render up the sin offering and make atonement for the one cleansing himself from his impurity"

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So sickness of Leprosy was related to sin becuase the effects of sin are sickness and death. Also in the Mosaic law where the SIN OFFERING for even 'unintentional' sins was a major feature. So how can a person sin 'unintentionally'??? They do so because, like the leper, they have no control over sin. you said the right words, but you failed to grasp the meaning.You might want to reconsider what the word 'Practice' might mean to a prostitute. I only seek to clarify anything that is not scriptural or that contradicts it. Everything you say contradicts scripture because everything you believe comes from sources other then the bible. The scriptures you quote are out of context and do not take all of the writings into account. You do not believe that the Apostles such as Paul are authoritative nor do you seem to believe the authority of the scriptures themselves as the word of God. Most of its stories you claim to be nothing more then myths. And you deny God his personal name... a name by which he is identified in the OT thousands of times over.If you want to teach the scriptures, you must first believe them to be true yourself. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

Well, it only adds to indications that seem to be piling up. Christianity looks to be a mismash concocted of features of other mystery religions that were around in the Roman era plus bits of old testament prophecy stuck in to make it look like they had been fulfilled.This wouldn't matter much except that so much of it is pernicious, like your stuff about sin.

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Jesus was making clear that the blindness was not the result of some specific sin on the part of the blind man or his parents.

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Exactly.

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Rather, it was the result of the imperfection all of us have inherited from Adam and thus we are subject to defects such as being born blind.

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Wrong. You cannot pull that from the plain reading of the text. Jesus did not imply any inherited imperfection from the imaginary first man. Remember, you took the magic out of the A&E story. Adam and Eve weren't actual individuals.Did you read all of Psalm 51? That was David wailing after he committed adultery. It is a song which David wrote to express his feelings. It is creative expression not necessarily a statement of events. David is talking about himself, not all of mankind. Just because David is wailing poor, poor, pitiful me; doesn't mean all of mankind inherited sin. It does not support Paul's idea that all mankind is incapable of not sinning.

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Jesus further words that "this happened that the work of God might be made manifest" was in reference to himself because the mans defect was an opportunity for Jesus to make manifest the works of God.
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So rather then God being the 'reason' for our defects, God is the 'answer' to our defects.

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I didn't say God was the reason for "our" defects, the text implies that God is the reason for that man's defect so that people could see Jesus heal him.The text does not support Paul's idea of inherited sin or that all are unable not to sin. Jesus clearly said that neither this man nor his parents sinned. He didn't say that neither the man's sin nor his parents sin caused the defect.

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purpledawn writes:

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Sin can't rule! Please stop the catch phrases and deal with practical application. Notice what Jesus told her at the end of what you quoted?

I have showed you scripture upon scripture that prove otherwise. The OT is very clear when it comes to sin. YOu have yet to show any scriptures that prove what you are claiming.

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Sure I have. Message 324 lists them. You do realize that saying you've shown me countless scripture doesn't necessarily cancel out my saying I've shown you countless scripture. You've shown lots of scripture and I've countered the plain text reading of what you've provided. You also add to your scripture just like you did to the A&E story and the verse above. Your additions don't count as scripture.

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when it came to sickness, the Mosaic Law stated ...
So sickness of Leprosy was related to sin becuase the effects of sin are sickness and death. Also in the Mosaic law where the SIN OFFERING for even 'unintentional' sins was a major feature. So how can a person sin 'unintentionally'??? They do so because, like the leper, they have no control over sin.

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Yes I'm familiar with Leviticus. I agree that some ancient peoples felt that illness was caused by sin. That's why those men asked Jesus the question they did. The Book of Job was written to counter that idea.Now take the time to understand the sacrifices in Leviticus. Don't get hung up on the word sin. The purpose of the sin offering: Mandatory atonement for specific unintentional sin; confession of sin; forgiveness of sin; cleansing from defilement. This comes from the NIV Study Bible table of sacrifices.The leper would fall under cleansing from defilement. IOW, make atonement for the one cleansing himself from his impurity. Plus it helped with unintentional sin also. Covers all bases. How does their superstition support Paul? Where does GOD say we are incapable of not sinning?Today we know that sickness has nothing to do with sin. Maybe you do, but the author of Job didn't and I don't think Jesus did.

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you said the right words, but you failed to grasp the meaning.

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You might want to reconsider what the word 'Practice' might mean to a prostitute.

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Please. Do we have to go to the ridiculous?

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I only seek to clarify anything that is not scriptural or that contradicts it. Everything you say contradicts scripture because everything you believe comes from sources other then the bible. The scriptures you quote are out of context and do not take all of the writings into account. You do not believe that the Apostles such as Paul are authoritative nor do you seem to believe the authority of the scriptures themselves as the word of God. Most of its stories you claim to be nothing more then myths. And you deny God his personal name... a name by which he is identified in the OT thousands of times over.

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If you want to teach the scriptures, you must first believe them to be true yourself.

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Show me the posts where I've actually contradicted scripture. Not where I've contradicted current doctrine or contradicted your additions, but where have I contradicted scripture?I don't claim that they are "nothing more" than myths. You do. I consider myths to be very important to cultures. That's how they taught local morals etc. Myths have their purpose. There are myths, songs, poems, history. Why limit your understanding of the book you supposedly cherish?Paul had authority over the Gentiles he recruited. He did not have authority over the Jews. I understand what Paul was trying to do and I find it insulting when someone presents a warped doctrine that is derived from Paul's teachings and claim it is God's. Paul did not speak for God.Since this topic was very narrow, you really don't know how I understand Paul's work. He has some good stuff. But he didn't speak for God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Look at the basic beliefs of Zoroastrianism. Sound familiar?Here are a few

will bring about a final renovation of the world, and in which the dead will be revived.[5]

Even in Catholicism's own writings, the religion explains that is was easier t assimilate pagan religions by attaching Christian symbolism to pagan celebrations, rituals, etc. The pine tree at Christmas, the Yule log, etc.It started as assimilation and then after Vatican II, the process was called indigenization. AssimilationAfter Vatican II, the Catholic church encouraged all cultures to include their unique music, art, dance, dress, and values in the Mass and other religious services.The Gentiles of Paul's time were already Hellenized (Greek) so odds are he plopped Jesus on their Zoroastrian concepts. There was a lot of competition in the development of Christianity. If a group wants to follow Paul's teachings I have no problem, but they need to make it clear. The mental abuse used by some groups to keep people feeling helpless is not what Jesus taught.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

understanding doesnt come from reading one part of one verse...it comes from taking ALL of the bible into consideration...such as all those scriptures I showed which confirm the truth that mankind are born into sin which has lead to sickness and death and the requirement for an atonement which leads us back to God.You are taking a part of 1 verse and producing a belief that is no where else in the bible. again you fail to grasp the purpose of 'inspired' writings. Within the writings are universal truths. The truth that david expresses in Ps 51 is that of being born into sin. David was not the only man to ever be born into the condition of sin... its a universal truth that God is making known to ALL mankind. again you fail to take into consideration the truth that God does not bring evil things upon anyone. He did not 'give' the man the defect so he could show his power...He 'removed' the defect to show his power. Who created the Law? It was given to Moses by God...according to God, sickness required a sin offering. I am far from hung up on sin. I understand that it means to 'miss' in both Hebrew and Greek. What we as a race are 'missing' is the ability to live according to Gods perfection in mind, body and spirit. Thats what independence from God has done and that is what sin is.

If you throw away Gods teachings as expressed by Paul, you are missing out some vital christian understandingi can understand why you keep asking what christian laws actually are.

there is certainly a lot of adaptations to be found in the realm of Christendom. But that does not mean there is no christian church that is practicing true Christianity... the form of Christianity established in the 1st century.Jesus told his disciples that it would happen, and the Apostles indicated that it had already begun toward the end of the 1st century.

Well you obviously think that the words attributed to Jesus are incorrect. Can you explain then why you chose to quote them ? And whether you think that it is the Gospel that is in error or Jesus himself ?

I certainly do believe Jesus words. If i did not, i wouldnt bother arguing for them.What is incorrect is purpledawns explanation of the verse in question. In msg 369 she said "It shows that God can make or allow bad things to happen due to no fault on the part of the person."this is not in harmony with what we know of God and what the bible says such as James 1:13"When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone."So Jesus obviously did not mean that God made the man blind, that is contrary to the very personality of God.I believe that 'All scripture is inspired by God' therefore, if one belief contradicts a scripture, then its the belief that is wrong, not the word of God. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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I certainly do believe Jesus words. If i did not, i wouldnt bother arguing for them.

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Since you are arguing AGAINST these then you obviously do not consider them to be Jesus
words. So why did you quote that text ?

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What is incorrect is purpledawns explanation of the verse in question. In msg 369 she said "It shows that God can make or allow bad things to happen due to no fault on the part of the person."

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But that is what it says: The blindness isn't due to any fault of the man's he is blind so that Jesus can show God's power by miraculously curing him.

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this is not in harmony with what we know of God and what the bible says such as James 1:13 "When under trial, let no one say: "I am being tried by God." For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone."

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So your interpretation of James contradicts the words attributed to Jesus, and that is why you reject them.

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I believe that 'All scripture is inspired by God' therefore, if one belief contradicts a scripture, then its the belief that is wrong, not the word of God.

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In this case you are claiming that scripture is wrong and your belief is right.

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If you throw away Gods teachings as expressed by Paul, you are missing out some vital christian understanding

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I'm not missing out on any vital Christian dogma. I said Paul has some good points, but I also understand that his style of writing is geared towards a specific purpose.He is trying to convince Gentiles to believe that they need to believe in Jesus and not their current god(s). To do that he has to convince them that all of mankind is in the same boat. Create a need and then fill it.To get to the good stuff we have to sift through the persuasion tactics. Remember that a lot of different ideas were buzzing around in the first century. Understand the reality of the time. Paul didn't live in a vacuum. The area was dominated by Greece and Rome.Given that the Gentiles were probably influenced by Greek Philosophers, the Zoroastrian religion, mystery religions, etc., it would not have been difficult for Paul to build on their existing beliefs and bridge those beliefs to his religion.The idea that the flesh is evil and spirit is good was apparently part of Plato's philosophy. The Intertestamental period covered about 400 years. Plato lived in this period. As I've said before, a culture can change greatly in 400 years.What Paul uses to persuade gentiles to join his cause, isn't necessarily what Jesus or the OT writings taught.The idea that mankind is unable to refrain from sinning or that mankind is not considered righteous by behaving is not what Jesus or the OT taught. Today, some clergy use Paul's method to keep people in a helpless frame of mind. This is another method of keeping people in need of the church (not God). Tear them down and then build them up so they feel indebted to the clergy for turning their life around.If the Synoptic Gospels are basically right about what Jesus taught, then Jesus did not make people feel they couldn't repent and refrain from sinning.

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i can understand why you keep asking what christian laws actually are.

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I keep asking because Christians can't produce their own standards of behavior and provide support that those standards carry a death penalty from God on judgment day.I keep asking because Christians keep claiming that the Mosaic Law came to and end, but keep holding people up to portions of that law.I keep asking because Christians avoid the issue.You also have not provided a list. I'm watching for that thread.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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understanding doesnt come from reading one part of one verse...it comes from taking ALL of the bible into consideration...such as all those scriptures I showed which confirm the truth that mankind are born into sin which has lead to sickness and death and the requirement for an atonement which leads us back to God.

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You are taking a part of 1 verse and producing a belief that is no where else in the bible.

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Pretty much what I've been saying to you since we started discussing with the exception that I say one should read what the author has written, not necessarily taking the entire Bible into account.The Bible is a compilation of different authors, writing styles, and cultures over thousands of years. Each author has their purpose for their writing. They aren't necessarily trying to agree or disagree with another author.I'm not producing a belief, I'm reading the verse you provided as it is written and the story around the incident. You on the other hand are trying to protect a belief. You presented the verse to support a belief. Unfortunately the plain text reading of the verse with its surrounding text does not support your contention. I'm disagreeing with your reading of the verse, not the verse itself. Understand the difference.

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again you fail to grasp the purpose of 'inspired' writings. Within the writings are universal truths. The truth that david expresses in Ps 51 is that of being born into sin. David was not the only man to ever be born into the condition of sin... its a universal truth that God is making known to ALL mankind.

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You have difficulty separating additional inspiration derived from a writing and what the author is actually saying.The truth that David is expressing is guilt. He is expressing how one feels overwhelmed when one gets caught doing something bad and one has to deal with the consequences or when a lot of bad things happen to people due to their own screw ups. He was depressed! It is not a truth that all mankind is born into "sin". Again...reality shows us otherwise. People do behave. Do you really see in the reality around you that no person is able to behave?

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again you fail to take into consideration the truth that God does not bring evil things upon anyone. He did not 'give' the man the defect so he could show his power...He 'removed' the defect to show his power.

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I guess you don't really understand what they believed. Some ancient people believed that God inflicted illness, bad times, death, or war as punishment for an individual or groups sinful actions. Sin is not a thing that can do anything to people. Don't get confused by creative writing.Have you ever read the song of Moses (Deuteronomy 32)? I'm quoting this song to show that they did believe that God is the one who inflicts. They felt that God controlled everything. Today we know that all illness is not caused by wrong behavior. As I keep reminding you, the book of Job was written to counter your idea that bad things only happen to bad people.If you can't accept that God inflicts you could go with the Book of Job and blame it on Satan. IOW, God allowed Satan to cause the man's defect. God still gave the OK. It doesn't make God less responsible.

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What we as a race are 'missing' is the ability to live according to Gods perfection in mind, body and spirit. Thats what independence from God has done and that is what sin is.

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So we've come full circle and you're back to your original contention. I still disagree with the idea that God expected humans to be "perfect" and that people today (whether believers or secular) are unable to behave. I have shown Biblical support for why I disagree with your position. There's not much more I can add unless you come up with another off the wall explanation.I look forward to the Christian Law thread.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

In the sermon on the Mount, Jesus told the crowdsMatt 7: "...if you, although being wicked, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more so will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those asking" Do you think he would have told those people that that they were wicked if he knew that they were not sinners? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.