Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.

God certainally could have started with the fall. He could have started with the judgement. But that would not do us any good. WE are the purpose of HIS works here. He started with the Creation and the Fatherhood. We are created with will (and were created with him). We chose. The fall happened to us. We fell because of choosing to do against his commandment. We fell from being with him to not being with him. Fallen, we need to be redeemed if we want to return to him. Needing to be redeemed means needing a Savior since we can not redeem ourselves. The Savior requires obedience which requires faith. Faith sorts out those who want to return from those who do not want to return. With this plan, those who do not want to return will have demonstrated that they do not want to return and those who do want to return will have demonstrated that they do want to and those who do will have demonstratd that they do. We will be judged based on the evidence of our lives via that demonstration.If we did not know that we were created by him and with him then we would not know to want to be with him, our Father. If we did not know about the fall then we would not know we needed a redeemer, our Redeemer. The creation and the fall are essential elements of our knowing. If we did not have knowledge of the Fatherhood, the creation, and the fall, the balance of the plan would make no sense to any of us. God's plan does not require that the above make sense now to those who do not want to return. But it will make sense to all of us when we stand before him to be judged. Not one person will be able to say "I am not standing before you". When I am standing before him then I will know for certain that the Fatherhood, the Creation, and the Fall happened. And I will know if I want to live with him. If I want to live with him then the Atonement will take effect and I will be freed from the effect of the Fall.I sincerely hope that this helps,
Bob, Alice, and Eve

Hi Mark,
The fall and the resulting judgement were inevitable. God could have started with the judgement or the post-judgement era, or as you point out, the post-fall era. God "bothered" with the creation (your pre-fall era I think) so that his Fatherhood and Creator role and Adam's and Eve's innocence and disobedience would be a part of human history, our history.Adam and Eve were created innocent and walked and talked with Father. By having the history of the fall we know that we are separated from Father by our own individual disobedience. As we know by having this history, Adam did not automatically fall just because Eve was disobedient. Interestingly, he did choose to be disobedient where Eve could rightly claim to have been deceived. Anyway, as children of Adam and Eve, we can each know that had we been Adam or Eve then we too would have individually fallen and thus been separated from Father. Thus we may understand why we are in the post-fall era.Looking forward then, those children who love Father naturally want to go back to live with him. We know that there is no single act or series of acts that we can perform that will undo our individual fall. So, we count on the at-one-ment which he provided to undo our individual fall. At the individual and inevitable judgement those who love Father will be redeemed and thus be able to live with him.I hope this post has addressed the question, Mark,
BAEP.S. We can discuss "Eve's will" once the question you have set out has been answered to your satisfaction.

Hi Mark,
If you had an authorative source for saying that the fall is not history I would be willing to listen. I think you statement is just a way of cutting off the conversation when you see that there is a valid point made.But, technically, you are correct for those who choose not to go back to Father. It would make no difference if they were innocent in the beginning or not. That does not make the choosing not a choice. And, technically, you are correct about those who choose not to go back not having will. They give it up though, again by choice.The conversation about God not being able to change his mind is also intendended to control the conversation. I have heard this discussion a hundred times and no proponent ever offers an authority. God can and does change his mind - if he could not then his power is limited just as the power of those who do not want to live with him is limited. You can and do change you mind.A proponent of the "God can not change his mind because he already knows everything" theory is combining four types of knowledge into the most limiting one - knowledge about actual facts. The proponent then typically uses that limiting definition to excuse his own behavior.The reality we live in clearly demonstrates that the more one knows the more options one has. One can know actual facts, historical and common, which gives useful options. One can also know about laws which gives even more options - more ability. On can also know what he wants which is the most enabling knowledge of all. And with each level of being enabled there comes risks and rewards.Until we know all the possiblilties (by understanding the facts and laws and the great desires of others) we can not be fully enabled to know what we want. As we become more able then our desires will generally match our ability.There is only one way to learn about facts and that is by a teacher (another person or the hard work of research). God already has done all the research - one way or another. Knowing what he knows he has built a framework in which he can pass as much knowledge of facts as is possible to us.Now, there are two ways to learn about laws. If, for example, we obey the law of gravity (even if we do not understand it) we greatly reduce our chance of breaking a leg. On the other hand, if we disobey the law of gravity and break our leg and learn to respect that law then that is good. As we learn to respect one law we can choose to apply that respect to other laws and not have to "break our leg" with respect to that law. If we know this then God knows this. Again, God has built a framework where he can pass as much knowledge of laws as is possible to us.For me, knowing that I was created innocent and that I fell though disobedience inspires me. I know that Adam and Eve learned much in the Garden because the history starts with God's training Adam regarding the animals and surely went on from there. I know that Adam and Eve and I can learn much from a broken law. Which brings me to the final type of knowledge - knowledge of good and evil (reward, risk, and safety). I know that God cursed the earth (not Adam, Eve, or me) for my sake - so I could learn this.The whole of the creation account is one of choice. If God noticed that something was good then the only possible assumption is that it could have been not so good or even bad. He knew what good was and built toward that and I do the same. When God created Eve (the pinnacle of his creations) and brought her to Adam, Adam could have said "no thanks". In fact, he chose the opposite when he said in essence "I love you Eve, and I will (I choose to) disobey and go with you." They were not discouraged by the fact that they and we might learn about law the hard way (though we do have the option of learning the easy way).We can desire anything we can think of. The knowledge of good and evil which we gain during our mortality will help us to identify those desires which are safe - where we will not break our legs. Those who have their hearts set on evil will have evil - apart from God and limited. Those who have their hearts set on good will have good - with Father and limited only by being safe. There is no way but mortality to learn about good and evil (safe and unsafe) and God knows that, which is why his plan unfolded as it did. And every individual has the option and will make the choice. I can and I must choose between good and evil.This is a long post and I apologize for that but I really hope to, in concert with other posters, move the argument away from the false doctrine of "no real choice". I think that doing so will allow those who will to clearly see that there are not "Logical Contradictions." To see that an always loving (the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow) God has put us in the greatest college in the universe.Most sincerely,
BAE

A. No one is dammed.
B. I commend you for your grasp and command of name-calling.
C. No stereotyping - just choice.
D. God did not assume you would make any particular choice.
E. God is not punishing anyone.
F. No one is preprogrammed.
G. You will not be forced to "hang out with" him (you have a choice!!!!!!)
H. Again, God cursed the earth, not the people.
I. I agree that your choice of how to curse would not be fair.
J. Again, great name calling. You really have that skill down pat.
K. I am not asking you to worship anyone.
L. Just as your errors in knowledge have lead you to your conclusion, a knowledge of the truth leads to the exact opposite conclusion.