Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.

you do raise a good point, but its not enough to cause me to doubt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qerX_jD_4n8Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

You are the one that is making the claim not me. Why you asking me? But this would be counter to an omniscient, omnipotent god.

If there is absolute truth, how can there be free will? A choice between TRUE and FALSE is not a real choice. Free will requires a choice like, If I do this, then that happens OR if I do something else, then something different happens. That's relative truth.

IF my belief is correct, there is not true free will in the sense of having a desired absolute outcome for ones life. "every knee shall bow" one way or another. If we accept Jesus as Gods character...and accept the mans Spirit into a communion with our own....we may then become compelled to start doing more altruistic behaviors. This is why I believe that even though you are not religious and even say that you lean towards agnosticism/atheism, you have the Spirit within you. most all of your answers to many religious arguments and discussions show that you have accepted Jesus, or at least that were you to meet Him you would acknowledge Him as Lord.You may argue, just for arguments sake, that God foreknew all of this and in that respect you never had a choice not to believe. (or act.) what say ye? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I just can't see how the existence of evil is compatible with any kind of omnimax god, and I certainly don't see a rational reason why such a god would perform such a charade.

Being born has consequences. A child can be born with devastating and utterly painful diseases that kill them before they even reach the age of 5. How did their choices lead to this suffering and evil?

There's a big difference between accepting the principles taught by somebody and acknowledging that somebody as "Lord". I think it's pretty clear that the "choice" to be altruistic is biological nad social, not religious. Almost every religion advocates the same altruism.

A popular quote by automaker Henry Ford concerning the Model T in 1909 was this:

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Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black.

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Thus my question. Is Red Necessary? Is Green Necessary? Is White Necessary?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Likely the first being in the universe to refuse to call Jesus Lord was satan. Why follow that model?

LOLAgain Phat, that is not what the Bible says.

I realize that. The argument we all were having was more of a hypothetical dogmatic interpretation and was not intended to be a Bible Study. Logically it would seem that satan was the first character mentioned that did not acknowledge Jesus as Lord.I realize that your basic argument was that the knowledge of good and evil was a gift that made humans responsible. In our arguments back then, Paul K was claiming that God had to be responsible for allowing evil to exist. I was attempting to introduce my own belief/take that there was potential evil and actual evil. The question was whether Satan ever had a choice to not become evil. Gods foreknowledge would have been irrelevant at this point. Whether God directly caused evil or only created an attractive nuisance is a side issue.Perhaps our question can be summarized thus: Who Was Responsible?

Was it God?(for creating the possibility?)

Was it Satan? (For choosing the possibility?)

Was it Adam & Eve? (For becoming aware of responsibility and choice?)

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Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

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Gods foreknowledge would have been irrelevant at this point.

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No, it is a central issue.If God knew before creating Satan, that Satan (if he was created as he was) would inevitably rebel then God has the primary responsibility. God chose the rebellion and all its effects and nobody else could possibly stop it. The evil was not just potential - it was guaranteed, and knowingly guaranteed by God's choices.

If God is Omniscient and God created all that is, seen and unseen, then God is responsible.It really is that simple.

OK, I'll follow your argument for a moment. God has the primary responsibility. The Buck Stops There. So what does that mean for an individual? Can the individual be blamed for denying God? Being angry at God? Ignoring belief altogether? Or is the individual still responsible for their own behavior regardless where the behavior originated from?

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OK, I'll follow your argument for a moment. God has the primary responsibility. The Buck Stops There. So what does that mean for an individual? Can the individual be blamed for denying God? Being angry at God? Ignoring belief altogether? Or is the individual still responsible for their own behavior regardless where the behavior originated from?

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Obviously if all that was decided in advance by God - before the individual even existed - it would be nuts for God to hold them responsible for any of it.As for us, can we really condemn someone for being unable to defy God’s will ?