Why omnipotent is a paradox.

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Certainly it applies to any arithmetic in general, practical human use.

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Thank you. I've been trying to make this very point to Rhhain.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

I think he resists because Godel's proof drops a big hole right in the middle of his perfect mathematics, I suspect. That may be why he continually downplays the significance of the proof.Now, I did read "Godel, Escher Bach", and went through a phase where I thought that proof was like the key to existence, or something - but I'm over that now. Nonetheless it's significance can't simply be dismissed by saying "Well, it doesn't apply to all arithmetic." Because it does apply, by definition, to any arithmetic robust enough to be generally useful.

Amen, brother...------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

crashfrog responds to me:

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Instead, he showed that certain systems are incomplete. Not all systems fall within that category.

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I'm by no means the expert here, but if I recall what I've read, the systems that this does apply to are the ones that are able to self-reference. ("Model number theory" was another/the same requirement, I believe.)

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Incorrect.The statement is that all axiomatic systems of number theory sophisticated enough to model arithmetic.Do you have evidence that the universe is an axiomatic system of number theory?

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Clearly the universe is able to model number theory.

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So you're saying that numbers do exist as part of existence, then?Over on the other thread, you seem to be saying that they don't.

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Ergo, Godels proof might apply to it.

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It might...if you can show that the universe is an axiomatic system of number theory.Remember, not everything in math is such a thing.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog responds to John:

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I think he resists because Godel's proof drops a big hole right in the middle of his perfect mathematics, I suspect.

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Or, perhaps, you don't have a clue as to what I'm talking about.Where did I say mathematics was perfect?Quote, please. I want to see where I said that mathematics was perfect or even hinted at such.Seeing as how I've been the one who has been getting the most technical about the mathematics, including what Godel's proofs actually say, I'm having a hard time figuring out how you came to the conclusion that I think math is perfect.

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That may be why he continually downplays the significance of the proof.

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Or, perhaps, it may be that he is more concerned with people being accurate and not over-stating themselves.Do you think the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applies to interpersonal relations?So what makes you think the Incompleteness Theorems apply to things that aren't axiomatic number systems?I didn't ask it directly, so I'll ask it here:Could you show how the universe is an axiomatic number system?That means you'll need to provide us with a way to actually calculate what the axioms of the universe are. I don't know about you, but I haven't heard of any yet.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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Where did I say mathematics was perfect?

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The tone of your posts across several threads strongly imply such a conclusion. I imagine that if you were to take a poll of those here, you'd find that this is the impression you leave-- to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the reader. If this is not your intent, you might consider the effectiveness of your communication.

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Or, perhaps, it may be that he is more concerned with people being accurate and not over-stating themselves.

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No, I don't think that is what he is doing, though he certainly thinks such is true. His frequent references to Presburger arithmetic are evidence of this. He should know that such arithmetic is useless for making calculations more complicated than that of which kinder-gardeners are capable. And valiantly refuses to address issue frontally.

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Do you think the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applies to interpersonal relations?

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Oh, yes. Most certainly-- kindof a hyper-uncertainty principle really.

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Could you show how the universe is an axiomatic number system?

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The universe itself? Who knows? Our descriptions of it certainly are, or, if you prefer, our descriptions incorporate such systems. That is where the uncertainty comes in.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

It seems to me that that in the context of an omnipotent
god that one should look to 'control systems' rather
than 'mathematical systems'.I can design a system such that I can control it.If I am interacting with it, I can still control it,
because I designed it to be controllable.Following the logic of the OP it seems to me that humans cannot
have complete knowledge of the universe, and so are unable to
determine whether or not an omnipotent god is a possibility or
not.

As far as I can reason, an omnipotent God is an impossiblity unless you are willing to embrase a paradox.Can God create a rock to heavy for him to lift?This question leads to a paradox. God can not be capable of both feats since they are mutually exclusive.Some people subscribe to the idea that omnipotence means being able to to everything that is logically possible as opposed to everything at all and, they say, since the above is not logically possible it does not contradict God's omnipotence.However, this question is actually the combination of two logically possible actions. These being:1) Creating a rock to large for anyone to lift.
2) Lifting any possible rock.Therefore a God capable of any logically possible action would be capable of both of these, which again leads to a paradox. Ergo, God can not be omnipotent without also being paradoxical.------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Now that makes sense to me!!!!

then you might ask, can god transcend logic?

This is the same statement as "God creating a rock too heavy for himself to lift". Therefore it's not logical. Your proof, therefore, rests on a fallacy. Or so it seems to me.Clearly there's some things an all-powerful god couldn't create because the universe is finite. There's no room for a rock of infinite size. I don't see that that's a restriction on gods power that's anything but a consequence of god's own actions.

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This is the same statement as "God creating a rock too heavy for himself to lift". Therefore it's not logical. Your proof, therefore, rests on a fallacy. Or so it seems to me.

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I don't see the fallacy, crash. ???------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

John responds to me:

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Where did I say mathematics was perfect?

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The tone of your posts across several threads strongly imply such a conclusion.

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I wouldn't say that at all.To paraphrase the remake of D.O.A.:What I mean? That's "imply." The way you take it? That's "infer."

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I imagine that if you were to take a poll of those here, you'd find that this is the impression you leave-- to a greater or lesser extent, depending on the reader. If this is not your intent, you might consider the effectiveness of your communication.

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Or perhaps you might consider being more careful. It wouldn't be the first time that many people are simply wrong.

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Do you think the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applies to interpersonal relations?

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Oh, yes. Most certainly-- kindof a hyper-uncertainty principle really.

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Oh really? And how does one determine Planck's constant in the example of a child by the cookie jar when he knows his mother is watching and when he doesn't? After all, that would be one way of calculating the constant: Determining the change in position and velocity...but that leads to the question of what it is that is changing position and velocity.And then there is the problem of how the child behaves when he only thinks his mother is around when she really isn't.

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Could you show how the universe is an axiomatic number system?

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The universe itself? Who knows?

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Then what makes you think the Incompleteness Theorems apply?------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

I guess it depends what you mean by omnipotent.Literally, omnipotence must be impossible (from a logical
point of view), that doesn't mean that to all intents and
pusposes an 'omnipotent' entity couldn't exist.

Is God included in anyone?