Christian Denominations - Heaven and Hell

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Certainly, everyone I know is atheist - so I would love to find the place where it says atheism will also give eternal life.

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So, is the reason you are a Christian because you fear death?You have denied this in the past, but it certainly seems to be exactly what you are saying here.

It was mankind. The sheep and goats parable is being told to Jewish believers who expected a millinial kingdom. This judgement WILL happen, and all people will be judged by what they know. Their heart. This happens after the church, the body of Christ, is taken up. There will probably be quite a few left, (in my belief) so you are right that works will be the standard in the last times. Nations will not be punished for believing in their gods, but they will be judged by what they know.

Do you think that the natural unregenerated man CAN love God with a whole heart? It takes Grace to initiate this action. Also remember, He is addressing Jews.Wiz! You say: So lets run with this concept! By Jesus definition, one must lose their life,(ego, self determinism, etc) in order to gain salvation. If an atheist was pouring themselves into a humanitarian cause with every ounce of their being, all in the name of humanistic love...love for humanity, bettering future children, saving the whales, even...and they were to the point of all self denial, I believe that if they were to die at that point as an atheist, Jesus would be there to hug them and give them a choice of acceptance/rejection. Atheists do not reject Jesus so much as they reject a selfish and human church who has done nothing to encourage them. They reject religion because intellectualism gives more of a certainty to their future. There are many reasons, as there are many atheists. Issues of salvation, however, are Gods and Gods alone to judge. Ultimately.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-30-2004 07:47 AM

Sure. Even if he doesn't know that it is GOD he is loving.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

OK.. I will agree with you there, but do you agree that IF Jesus is who He is, that once they meet Him, they would never refuse Him anyway?(see my post 33)This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-30-2004 07:49 AM

I believe by hearing the Gospel. I always have. Consciously, I can't remember fear of death having anything to do with it.R u suggesting I should become atheist here?

For Christians, of course. But the bigger issue is knowing the Father.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Mike, when someone asks you if you are a Christian because you fear death, ask them if they refuse to surrender their will to God because they fear death of Ego?Exclusionist:== You must accept God the way that it is written in my book.Atheist:== I do not have to accept you or your book. All I have to accept is the unctions within my heart.Exclusionist== My book says that Jesus says that No man comes to Him unless the Spirit draws him. So your unctions will be from the Spirit.Atheist== I can find my way without YOU, however.Exclusionist== But you will never find your way without Him.Atheist: How do you know which way I am talking about?Exclusionist: How many ways are there?Atheist: Many ways. As many as there are souls.Exclusionist: Many ways to where?

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I believe by hearing the Gospel. I always have. Consciously, I can't remember fear of death having anything to do with it.

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This is what you said, mike:

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Certainly, everyone I know is atheist - so I would love to find the place where it says atheism will also give eternal life.

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You clearly are concerned that all of the athiests you know are going to miss out on eternal life.You don't mantion how being a Christian would make their lives more fulfilling, or make them better people, or anthing about their lives NOW.It seems that the only thing that matters to you about being a christian is that you get eternal life after you die.Otherwise, you wouldn't have mentioned eternal life after death at all.Fixed quote. PBThis message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-30-2004 08:28 AM

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Mike, when someone asks you if you are a Christian because you fear death, ask them if they refuse to surrender their will to God because they fear death of Ego?

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1) Or, he could answer the question honestly.2) Surrender my will to God? Which God?3) Which person is feeding their Ego, the person who believes that an all-powerful being made them and cares deeply about every little thing they think and do, or the person who does not.

So when Jesus says: Seems kinda strange. So it seems as if Jesus is involved in the equation one way or another. I think that the Father is the goal, but the Son makes it a human thing.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-30-2004 08:27 AM

Interesting point. The early church lkeaders proclaimed that God was the authority, took it upon themselves to rule the people, and became corrupt. The humanists proclaimed man as the pinnacle of achievement, tried to achieve immortality through art, and stood apart. Jesus, although God in human form, took upon Himself NO reputation. The reputation that He had was used by the church to maintain power.

I am not clear how what you wrote is an answer to my question. Remember, you said that mike should ask anyone who asks him if he is a christian because he fears death if they fear the death of their Ego.Which person is feeding their Ego, the person who believes that an all-powerful being made them and cares deeply about every little thing they think and do, or the person who does not?Also, which God should we be submitting to when we kill our egos?

You always ask this, and I suppose that from your standpoint it makes perfect sense. to me, God is an absolute, and there is one of him. Naturally, humans have invented many gods, and from your standpoint there is no difference. True enough, and worth pondering. But to admit that we are a speck of a speck of a fleas ticks speck in the universe and then assume to know so much about it all the while denying previous human religious speculations is NOT being humble, either. We have simply made a god out of logic and science.

Let's focus on what you have refused to attack or rebut:After I explicitly demonstrate which Bible verses I have used to support my stance and which you have not refuted (aside from a prima facie claim of me being an out-of-context, exclusionary, quote-based person), you still refuse to refute my arguments or explicity show how I am out of context. I'll post the verses once again.
Romans 3:23
Ephesians 2:8-9
Romans 17:15-20You have also failed to refute my answers to the Parable of Ten Virgins and The Parable of the Talents. I thought all of Matthew 25 would support your point, not just a selected parable. Talk about out-of-context. Here's the Bible verses I have used to support my stances on these parables:
Matthew 26:40-41 (which would be especially in context)
excerpts from James 2:14-26Furthermore, you used no further Biblical support for your stance on The Sheep and the Goats. I used this verse:
1 Corinthians 6:11So here's what you have left. You have John 14 and Matthew 25:31-46 (it was originally all of Matthew 25, but I guess the other two parables weren't important). You have not used any further Biblical support beyond that. And finally, you have not addressed my critical question:
How do you meet the standards of good works described in these two excerpts?
How is it possible to love each other, not with "phileo" love, but "agape" love?
How is it possible to act like the sheep, even though we've also acted like the goats?
Do you meet these standards of good works by your own good works and your own actins, or is it through Christ's death, resurrection, and forgiveness of sins that you appear perfect before God? Could you please demonstrate how I have done that? The fact is that "professing, Bible thumping" is establishing a standard of behavior or good works needed to go to heaven. And I have been arguing against justification by works this entire time. How about you put an end to the smear attacks?This message has been edited by commike37, 12-30-2004 12:37 AMThis message has been edited by commike37, 12-30-2004 13:13 AM