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Author Topic:   Let us reason together.
nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 13 of 152 (30709)
01-30-2003 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by drummachine
01-27-2003 1:59 AM


quote:
Can any of you truly believe when you look at a monkey it is your ancestor?
Monkeys aren't our ancestors.
Monkeys and humans share a common ancestor.
Oh, your beliefs are all well and good, and I am glad you are happier now, but why reject all of modern Biology?
You obviously don't know much, if anything, about the Theory of Evolution, so why reject it before you understand it?
Do you believe that your God/Jesus really wants you to remain ignorant of science?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by drummachine, posted 01-27-2003 1:59 AM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 21 of 152 (31028)
02-02-2003 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by drummachine
02-01-2003 9:39 PM



This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by drummachine, posted 02-01-2003 9:39 PM drummachine has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by nator, posted 02-07-2003 12:30 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 25 of 152 (31080)
02-02-2003 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by drummachine
02-02-2003 5:06 PM


So, drum, have you gone to the site I provided to you?
What, specifically, did you learn from it, regarding the Theory of Evolution?
I'm not asking you to believe it, just to understand what the scientific community means with regards to this theory.
Are there any parts that weren't clear, or do you need any further information?
Perhaps you can give a basic summary of what you have learned about what scientists say about Evolution here, and what your objections are to it.
That way, we can have a discussion about the science, rather than a bunch of preachy Biblical posts.
That would be a great deal more interesting, don't you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by drummachine, posted 02-02-2003 5:06 PM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 30 of 152 (31619)
02-07-2003 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by drummachine
02-06-2003 9:17 PM


Attempt #2:
So, drum, have you gone to the site I provided to you?
What, specifically, did you learn from it, regarding the Theory of Evolution?
I'm not asking you to believe it, just to understand what the scientific community means with regards to this theory.
Are there any parts that weren't clear, or do you need any further information?
Perhaps you can give a basic summary of what you have learned about what scientists say about Evolution here, and what your objections are to it.
That way, we can have a discussion about the science, rather than a bunch of preachy Biblical posts. [or, as you're now doing, enormous, non-responsive, cut-n-paste posts. Some friendly advice: GO READ THE FORUM GUIDELINES. You're in violation right now.]
That would be a great deal more interesting, don't you think?
------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."
-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-07-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by drummachine, posted 02-06-2003 9:17 PM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 31 of 152 (31621)
02-07-2003 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by nator
02-02-2003 9:28 AM


OOPS! Sorry, looks like that website just recently moved; I found it again:
mbdojo.com - mbdojo Resources and Information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by nator, posted 02-02-2003 9:28 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 40 of 152 (31854)
02-10-2003 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by drummachine
02-08-2003 2:00 PM


quote:
I looked at the site. I believe there are mutations in the genes. In the beginning were 2 dogs for example. They had offspring and some of the parents genes were not passed to the pup. It has always been only man, only dog, etc. I believe because of sin. So, everything evolved by chance? We look at the heavens or the earth or even a little ant. By chance? No designer?
I am sorry, but I can't actually tell from this post if you actually went to the site or not.
...or, if you did go to the site, if you understand what it expalins.
What would be helpful is if you were to post a brief summary of the information posted on the "evolution for beginners" site so we can be sure you understand.
Again, I am not asking you to accept Biology, just to understand the argument.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-10-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by drummachine, posted 02-08-2003 2:00 PM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 44 of 152 (32272)
02-14-2003 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by drummachine
02-14-2003 1:44 AM


Nope, not yet.
Your history with my posts is not very good, drum.
You asked for a basic explanation of evolution, and I provided one.
You did not reply to comment upon that explanation. I specifically asked you to reply and to discuss the information on the website, and you kind of muttered something about having been to the site and about mutation.
So far, I have no reason at all to believe that you have any understanding of biological evolution whatsoever. Please realize that I realize that you may understand it perfectly. So far, you haven't indicated anything close to this.
Surely you understand how important it is to have a good grasp of any concept before you can make any good decisions about if, right?
Before I put a lot of time and effort into a reply to your latest massive (and annoying) cut n paste, I want to be assured that my reply won't be ignored like you have ignored my other replies.
I also have little interest in discussing anything with someone whom I suspect is quite ignorant on a subject yet feels perfectly fine rejecting that subject in his arrogance.
So, prove me wrong and please post a summary of that website I provided for you so we can have a discussion of science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by drummachine, posted 02-14-2003 1:44 AM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 45 of 152 (32273)
02-14-2003 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by drummachine
02-14-2003 1:44 AM


deleted double post.
[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-14-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by drummachine, posted 02-14-2003 1:44 AM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 152 (32394)
02-16-2003 10:21 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by drummachine
02-15-2003 1:02 AM


quote:
I have looked at the site.
This is your last chance to achieve any kind of credability here, drum.
Go to the site and learn the bare basics of what scientists say evolution is, and come back here and tell us what you think they are.
Otherwise, I am not interested in putting any effort into replying to your posts.
Don't you agree that it is reasonable for you to understand what it is you are denying? This is not rhetorical. A yes or no answer would be appreciated.
quote:
The first question I would ask is, "How could there be life without a designer?" Its like looking at a building. Was the building thrown together by an explosion in a brick factory only using time and chance, or was there a desginer who planned everything ahead of time?
The reason we know that buildings are designed is because we have experience with buildings and where they come from. We have abundant evidence of exactly who and how, many, many buildings were designed; people made them.
It is utterly inappropriate to compare living things with human-designed artifacts.
Inanimate objects are not subject to Biological Evolution, so the way they come about is completely different.
quote:
I won't cut & paste if you without a link explain to me what evolution is? How you have interpreted it?
Somehow I feel as though I am being tricked into doing your thinking and summarizing for you, but here goes...
Simply put, evolution is the change in a population's gene pool over time.
Organisms are not genetically itentical to their parents through mutation. This results in genetic variation in a population.
Through natural selection, gene flow, sexual selection, genetic drift, and other mechanisms, certain traits are favored in a certain environment and these proliferate among the population. If the environment changes, these traits may or may not continue to be beneficial, so different traits may become more beneficial, changing the population again.
quote:
Please give me the best evidence for evolution and I will give you the best evidence for creation.
This evidence for creation is most eagerly anticipated.
Is it going to be scientific evidence? If so, can you provide a scientific Theory of Creation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by drummachine, posted 02-15-2003 1:02 AM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 52 of 152 (32538)
02-18-2003 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by drummachine
02-17-2003 8:08 PM


A reply to message #47 if you please, drum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by drummachine, posted 02-17-2003 8:08 PM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 57 of 152 (32742)
02-20-2003 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by drummachine
02-19-2003 8:01 PM


quote:
Schrafinator or any others,
If you would please answer these questions for me I will deffinently answer your questions. Thank you.
No, I won't.
See, I don't believe you when you say you will answer my questions, because you haven't commented on or answered any of my replies to you.
I have acted in good faith, answering the specific questions about evolution that you wished to have answered, and you simply ignore my efforts and strongly resist actually talking about science and evidence.
I don't think you have ever had any intentions of engaging in honest debate, so I am not going to make any further efforts unless you can show me that you are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by drummachine, posted 02-19-2003 8:01 PM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 61 of 152 (32873)
02-22-2003 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by drummachine
02-20-2003 10:54 PM


Drum, this is not what I asked you to do.
I wanted you to go to the "evolution for beginners" site and learn the basic mechanics of evolution, and then come back here and explain it in your own words so we could be sure you understood.
I am not asking you to believe ANYTHING, just to UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT.
I am still waiting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by drummachine, posted 02-20-2003 10:54 PM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 64 of 152 (32915)
02-23-2003 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by drummachine
02-22-2003 8:33 PM


quote:
he only problem is I cannot agree with evolution. I did exactly what you were aksing. I observed what was being said. I posted some statements that were said.
No, you didn't do anything I asked you to do.
You did not explain the concept of evolution and NS in your own words.
What I want you to do is summarize, in your own words, what scientists say evolution is, and the bare basics of how it works.
quote:
There is no evidence.
Forget about the evidence for now. Just state in your own words what you believe scientists mean when they say "evolution", and Natural Selection." Don't try to prove or disprove anything, just state the concept.
quote:
I just cannot agree because there has to be a creator.
Why can't there be a creator and evolution at the same time?
quote:
We will never understand Jesus Christ until we repent and receive what He is offering. He paid the penalty for our sin at the cross. The bible is history. Not some religious text book. Numerous prophecies have been fulfilled. It is the revelation from the only One who was there in the past. Its not man's ideas. What a wonderful message it is. We can know the creator. He paid for our sins. He is the Messiah. The Savior. We are justified by faith and repentance. To have a new heart, a new life and peace that passes understanding. Not that we become a slave but a child. A son or daughter of the living God. He has spoken through the bible. Why wont people turn to Him. Maybe a painful childhood? Or we love the things of this world more than eternity? Sin is fun, right? We have to be politically correct? I'm sorry but He has made one way. A narrow road. Wide is the path to death. Many take that way. I was on that road as well. Our choice friends.
STOP PREACHING
STOP PREACHING
STOP PREACHING
STOP PREACHING
STOP PREACHING
STOP PREACHING
STOP PREACHING
STOP PREACHING

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by drummachine, posted 02-22-2003 8:33 PM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 82 of 152 (33420)
02-28-2003 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by drummachine
02-25-2003 9:57 PM


quote:
The ark was 45 x 75 x 450. It could easily fit them all.
LOL!!! Wow, what a devastating argument. Could you get a little less detailed?
Where would they put all the food?
How would they keep all the prey animals safe from the predators for an entire year?
Once they all got off of the ark, how would the prey animals survive without any vegetation to eat? What would the predators eat, considering that there were only a few pairs of single species around?
Here is an excerpt from a previous discussion I had with a Creationist about the Biblical flood/Ark. It's from message 15 in the Animals on the Ark thread, Geology and the Great Flood forum. Perhaps you can explain how there could have been enought food on the Ark to feed just these two horses, let alone ALL the other animals:
"Let's assume that there were only two horses on the Ark.
Let us also assume that they were of average size and were relatively easy keepers.
Let us ignore the fact that keeping a horse standing still in a small stall for a year would be quite dangerous to it's health, as they need to move around to keep their guts working properly.
Let us also ignore the muscle atrophy and depression and boredome which would also have detrimental effects.
Let us also assume that we would not feed these horses grain, because anyone who feeds horses knows that confining a horse and feeding it lots of grain (high-powered) food is a prescription for life-threatening health problems (colic) and excitability and unruliness. Letting the horse roam on several acres (at least) of land and feeding it hay and grass (low-powered) food generally results in a much more sane, tractable, placid horse.
Now that we have determined that Noah would need to take on a lot of hay to feed these horses, let's see if we can figure out how much these two horses would need.
Well, if we are talking about a sedentary horse, and just wanting to get it to survive, not necessarily keeping it in good weight, I estimate, very conservatively, that you could get away with feeding the horses 15 pounds of hay a day, each. A bale of hay is something like 30 pounds.
This means that Noah, just to feed two horses and no other herbivores on the Ark, would need nearly 11,000 pounds of hay for 365 days.
Of course, this doesn't even account for the fresh water that would have to be stowed on board, as nobody could drink sea water and they couldn't collect enough rain in 40 days and 40 nights to last them the other 325 days.
Horses drink about 6-10 gallons of water a day, so this makes the two horses' minimum fresh water requirements for the year at 4,380 gallons."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by drummachine, posted 02-25-2003 9:57 PM drummachine has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2278 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 83 of 152 (33421)
02-28-2003 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by drummachine
02-23-2003 9:24 PM


quote:
This is what I believe that site proclaimed. This is what I got out of the Webster's New World Dictionary.
evolution: 1 The gradual changes that take place as something develops into a different or more complicated form. 2 The theory that all plants and animals have developed from earlier forms by changes that took place over periods of many years and were passed on from one generation to the next.
The Webster's dictionary definition is not a sufficient explanation of what scientists say evolution is and how they say it works. It is merely a dictionary definition and does not mention anything about mechanism.
So, could you please try again?
I would like a short-answer summary of what scientists say evolution is and how it works. I have provided you with several informative, science-based, easy-to-read sites as your source material.
I am beginning to think that you have some issues with reading comprehension and this is why you are having a difficult time doing what I ask. Are you still in school?
quote:
Where is the sample? If we evolved from a common ancestor, is my grandpa curious George? Seriously, is this what evolution is? Man evolved from other species? Man is man and ape is ape just like God said. Its very sad that man would put all there faith, hope and trust in man's opinions than the creator. The only one that was there in the past. The bible fits with history, not evolution.
You are trying to argue again. FORGET ABOUT EVIDENCE FOR NOW.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by drummachine, posted 02-23-2003 9:24 PM drummachine has not replied

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