Christmas Star Explained

Actually, the universe state was changed, affecting where the spiritual areas could now be. More to do with fabric of the temporary universe, than moving things spiritual. New Jerusalem is the place Jesus built, and prepared after He left earth. It has precise measurements, and materials. New Jerusalem was not physical. It is not now, and won't be. It will come to earth in a little over 1000 years and land here. At that time, the universe will no longer be in the state it is now, only physical, but will be both, spiritual and physical, together, eternal. Where Jesus ascended to was not in the realm of men. It is a separate place now, no longer nearby, and almost accessible. From there, He prepared a place for us believers, a special place. So special, God lives there, and angels as well as us. Already covered that. It is spiritual, and not near the reach and realm of man. Didn't I ask you to state your position on the topic, precisely?? How could that be unreasonable?? It matters, because it is likely so unsupportable, as to weigh in as a joke. I like things that are funny. I also think that you have no logical case presented, so no basis to call anything illogical. Why are afraid to answer simple questions, like what do you think the Christmas star was? Are you that ashamed of your position, it can't see the light of day?? No idea what you are talking about there. God knocked down what?? At the time of Babel, the universe was not in this state, so we have nothing to compare it to. Once a man got beyond the curded ground, and surface, we had been limited to, maybe entering the spiritual level would have been entering the eternal state, somehow. In our sinful condition, that was not an option. The messiah had to come, and affect the change in man from the inside first. [qs] It has not stopped you from posting about these topics until I ask you to be specific. How should I interpret this?[qs] At face value. Besides I already covered all the questions. But the 'heaven' of Babel was long gone. Write that down, it is a crucial point. If you thought there was none, you would need reasons. If you thought it was astronomical, you would need support.Have you any reason to think that the sapphire throne starship star coes not fit the bill for the evidences, and bible we have??

One should be incredulous to baseless speculation with no substance, as your fantasy that the king must have heard it, when a peasant passed gas.
The Chief was right there, making sure that the king was on a need to know basis, till His agents presented the news. That is clear.I see no reason why the talk of shepherds had to reach the king at all. There was a lot of talk a lot of the time, by a lot of important people.The bible timeline has certain things having been done, and in a narrow margin of time. You don't want to work with that. Instead you fantasize that the Almighty was MIA, and unable to handle the security, and news dissemination concerning the biggest event in history, that calenders are still set to. You seem to seek a natural explanation for the star, despite it's unnatural nature!Yes, the shepherds told the good news of what the angels told them, but there in no reason to claim it made it to Herod at all. There is absolute reason to know it did not, the bible documents Herod as being totally ignorant. Just the way you would think the Almighty would have kept the evil child killer.If that is the imaginary main Planck of your case, then you have no case.There is a real time line boundary to work in here, and real events that must fit in it. There are several known quantities, and the end result is that a flying mobile throne of God in the night sky best fits the facts.

It doesn't matter whether or not you see reason. I laid out a plausible scenario - as opposed to your implausible scenario - for the people who do see reason. Of course. We always seek out a natural (plausible) explanation before we resort to a supernatural (implausible) explanation.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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It doesn't matter that you think it is plausible. It goes against the bible time line, and spirit of what was going on, and bald bible facts, like Herod knew squat at the news conference of the Magi.Why seek out to interpret the bible selectively, and in such a way as to leave God out of the picture, the rest of the bible out of the picture, and proceed to dreaming stuff up?? No, we do not, when it comes to things spiritual. Some do, some don't. Those that do, end up in a dead end, making stuff up. Those that don't click in to the universal mysteries of the eternal spiritual which was real and present at the birth of the son of God. Without that spiritual, you can't begin to grasp the even modestly deep things of the spirit.You have made up what you feel is a plausible scenario, and I might ask you something. Is there a real messiah in that scenario, or a real Father, or any reality to the other parts of the new testament, where the time frame is given?? Was there any real star at all in your mental conjuring??What do you claim it was, or was not??? Obviously you can't assail my bible based claims, that meet all scientific evidences we do have.-What's left, but to look at your alternative?? Show us what you got.Edited by simple, : No reason given.

Of course. Everything I have posted in this thread is based on the assumption that there is a real God and that Jesus was the real Messiah. Everything I have posted is based on what the gospel accounts actually say. Of course. Everything I have posted in this thread is based on the assumption that there were real wise men who saw something real in the sky. Everything I have posted is based on what the gospel accounts actually say.

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“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place”
-- Joseph Goebbels
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So they couldn't walk into heaven now? Your position changes so fast I can't keep track of it. Thanks for not answering the question. Had I asked about New Jerusalem I would have said "what is New Jerusalem?" and not "so is this another Heaven that Jesus ascended to after his death?" No you didn't, you rambled on about New Jerusalem when I was clear about what Heaven I was talking about for that period of time. And you don't make sense anyways - try to clear up my specific question about why its not physical even though Jesus went to lengths to show he was still human. No you didn't you asked me to answer my own questions. Look back in the thread. If that's not what you wished to convey then quote the appropriate portions next time. Your confusing enough without me guessing what sections of my post you actually meant to quote. I believe it was a small cloud of bluish purple frogs with vampire teeth and a long fuzzy tail. They plan to rule the world by slowly taking over high ranking positions in government, and they eat babies. (hence their proximity to the newborn Jesus)There! Now that that is out of the way can we carry on with your version of the story? You where talking about the tower of Babel, I made a fast summary so I can stop repeating the same crap again and again. I see that you are unable to keep up with even that much so I will continue to repeat the same stuff over and over so you can remember what you have posted and how I am replying. I really don't care, unless your story is going to progress to a point where you say if that version was or was not physical in such a way that the tower could have been a successful project. You could live by your name for once and answer me simple. This is what I meant by never being clear so you can switch sides of the fence any time you want. No need to write it down, my memory is fine. Especially given that I have to repeat so often for you to keep up with your own story. Its quite obvious that I was aware of the Babel heaven being long gone as its part of my post that you are replying too. The problem is that you never answer any question that provides a concise answer that you don't appear to contradict sometimes within the same reply. Clarity is key here, make some attempt so this discussion can quit eating its own head. So you are saying that for me to question your story I must have one of my own. You have a weird outlook on things, but your in luck - refer to my frog story from this point on. I have no support, in case you are wondering. Nothing. (Rainy Season by Stephen King is the basis for my inspiration however)

some thought wrong. indeed. magic, too. like i said, you just go right on making stuff up. first, it doesn't apply to god in that verse. it applies to judah. it's HIS rule jacob is talking about. second, not every shiny object is the same thing. yes. it's in god's prophecy to david, upon his coronation:

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2Sa 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

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remember now, this is god talking to david. not vice versa. it's david's kingdom, and david's throne, granted to him by god. or does david have a spaceship too? that's not what the verse says. the verse says judah would rule until the end of time. no, simple, i was talking about your ignorance. you should feel free to admit when you don't know something. which is apparently quite frequently, seeing has 99% of your postings are simply made up nonsense. simple, i was discussing the OP. if you don't like people being on topic that's your issue. the text does not say where they went. god wasn't physically there? have you READ exodus? seriously. pillar of fire by day, pillar of smoke at night. leading the way through the desert. you were basically saying that "you can't trust jews" to get the description of the messiah right. nevermind that it's their religion and their definitions. again, you are literally speaking ill of the people who wrote the bible, saying their books are lies. do you not see the issue with this? no. his silence speaks volumnes. look. let's say, hypothetically, that some great work of art is missing, say the mona lisa. if you were in charge of the louvre's inventory after ww2, and you failed to mention the mona lisa, and when we go check the museum now, it's not there -- did it disappear last thursday, or after ww2? it should be in 2 kings 25 if it was in the first temple before the babylonians came. it should be ezra 1 if it was in the second temple. what? this is 500 and 600 years before christ. it's NOT in the second temple when ezra has it rebuilt under cyrus. it's NOT in the second temple when babylon invades and takes everything else. the altar is also missing. you mean thing? you keeping using "ting." why? it's gotta be on purpose. you're not even making sense, either way. ....uh, no. it didn't get around by levitation. people carried it. on specially designed holy sticks made of shittim wood, covered in gold. inserted through four rings, one each corner. it didn't teleport. and even if it did, that's be a pretty cool miracle to write about. look, it's presence alone is enough to write about. miracles are even more worthy of writing. nothing was said about it? it wasn't there. *headdesk*do you really not understand how noah's ark -- a boat -- is a completely different thing than the ark of the covenant -- a box covered in gold and topped by two cherubim, designed to carry the ten commandments, and a few other relic?go back to sunday school. then it was destroyed when the temple was burned to the ground. remember, first and second temples -- there was a period in between when there was nothing there because the first temple was destroyed. the second temple had to be BUILT. it's not just a fruity naming system. there really were two physical temples. now, if you wanna talk simple remodelling, herod the great (you know, that madman from above) remodelled the second temple quite extravagently. it was still called "the second temple."

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*sigh* not fired. killed. do you really not understand how being a king worked? you don't fire a king. you depose them. violently. a new king in israel, that wasn't herod's son, meant revolution, rebellion, and a violent coup. what? how did you get that from what i said? no, they saw a star, not a ufo. they gathered information from the star -- something routine in astrology, but that a UFO cannot do. do you just live in your own little world or something? you've got a very vivid imagination. here's this object, a chariot, that appears once in a vision in the bible, and you're reading it all over the place, arbitrarily calling it certain names, and then interpretting anything with a similar name to be it. how ludicrous can you be? no. you missed the point. the point is that a bunch of astrologers saw it from 1,000 miles away, but the people right under it simply hadn't noticed. that points to a star (you know, like it says in the bible) and not a UFO. no, simple. i know a lot more about this subject than you do. not just the bible, but UFOs too. you don't know jack, but you keep coming in here with your ridiculous intepretations that plainly defy any rational reading of the text. you're making shit up, proof positive of someone who doesn't know jack. considering that astrology was punishable by death in israel, yes. only astrologers from a foreign country would have noticed. and only astrologers from persia would have cared. why persia? read the book of esther -- persia had an israelite queen. the two nations were on good terms. i'm suggesting that ezekiel's vision was not of a klingon bird of prey. it was a vision, laden with symbolic meanings and not reality. do you understand the difference?

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Great, so you believe in Jesus, and the real Christmas star. How did a star guide men to a house???
Or do you actually mean "as if" the bible were true, though you think something else?
I can't see how anyone that believes the bible could question the idea that Jesus was no longer a baby by the time the wise men got there.Here is some supposed observations from someone that lived close to that time.
"Upon seeing a star rising in the East (the Star of Bethlehem), they realized it was a sign that the king of the Jews had been born. According to St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. AD 107), the star shone with an inexpressible brilliance, and the sun, moon, and other stars all formed a chorus around the special star (Letter to the Ephesians, 19). The wise men followed the star to Bethlehem of Judea, and to Jesus' dwelling there. Having arrived, they worshipped the infant Jesus, and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh."
Welcome churchyear.net - BlueHost.comDoesn't sound like a regular star at all. It really is impossible for a star up there to guide us to a house. Admit it.

Wow...just wow.I think I've done a pretty good job of following the "simple" logic displayed on this thread so far, but this is too much.Denying the object of the whole thread (you did say "of any kind") just to continue on with your own tortured thought processes is just way beyond the pale.I am all for psychotropic drugs when used responsibly, but, seriously, when you can't even follow your own ideas (much less expect anyone else to...props to Ringo and Vacate btw) it may just be the time to come down and join the real world again. Because YOU said that heaven was only 2-3000 feet above ground (in a physically attainable state for the builders of the tower) and that heaven was only moved by Jesus AFTER he was risen (and was then, and only then, on a spiritual plane). A different state universe? How does that affect units of measurements? Care to explain?YOU said that heaven was at a certain height (2-3000 feet above the ground). YOU also said that Heaven was "moved" by Jesus when he was risen (which would be "thousands of years" after Babel). Now YOU have to explain how GOD IN HIS "SAPPHIRE UFO/THRONE" WAS VISIBLE AS A "STAR" TENS OF THOUSANDS OF FEET IN THE AIR (and invisible to everyone but the wise men...) BUT, HEAVEN, WHICH IS JUST 2-3000 FEET IN THE AIR, REMAINS INVISIBLE UNTIL JESUS DECIDES TO MOVE IT!Oh and you proposed that some of the wise men came from Message 160India and China but then claimed that the "STAR" was only high enough to be locally seen. How would anyone from India or China see a local (roundabout Israel) "star-sceptre" event?

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Besides, if I waved a magic wand over a star, and had it dance around, leading wise men to a street address, the world would know it. It would be recorded in ancient records. It wasn't. Therefore a localized event, and light in the sky best explains it

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...you might wanna try to keep up with your own argumentsBTW - I am not shouting..just making sure you see the words and (hopefully) comprehend them. Um...YOU claimed that the location of heaven changed in order to gain credibility for your Babel argument. Can you back it up? Care to back that up? And why in the world would the people in the story of Babel try to build a tower UP to heaven if heaven was BELOW THE EARTH? Are Paradise and Heaven two different places?? What is the difference between the two? Like it was pointed out to you many times before, if heaven was purely a spiritual place then there would have been no threat posed by a physical tower built by humans. If the story was a spiritual allegory, another problem remains...namely, why would God deliberately stop in its tracks a communal effort among humans to build a "tower" to the divine realm of heaven which would provide them with peace and harmony. Why wouldn't God reward such a "Christian" concept?Because he had a plan for his "son/himself?" He couldn't dare to part with his narcissistic plan to sacrifice himself (after riding in his spaceship for show) to help the people he created get over themselves and bow down to his superiority?Instead God caused confusion and discord...WHY? So it would make his ultimate plan for "Peace" that much harder?? So it would be that much harder for the message of Jesus to carry to all the nations?? Maybe it's just me and my puny human mind, but "unconditional love" does not require tests or convoluted games. If it was "all part of the Plan" it seems like a confused, sadistic mess, to me. Maybe you should let yourself know, because it was YOUR idea in the first damn place (minus the "spiritual level" because you suggested that Heaven was PHYSICALLY attainable with the Tower of Babel).

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

4400 years ago is not something I have changed in years as a timing point. Must be your attention, and comprehension shortfall there. You are welcome. Of course He did not ascend to New Jerusalem, if He prepared the city for us. Although I suppose it might be possible for someone to argue prepared does not mean create, just fix up!!? You may not be as clear as you think you are. Jesus was physical and spiritual, or merged, which is the eternal state. It has qualities of both! That is how we will be as well. Heaven, or New Jerusalem also will be like that. Whether it become like that at the new universe state, or is now, I don't know. But it will be like that when it comes to earth. I picture it as being spiritual only right now, but don't really know. Then consider them asked now. What is your take on the bible, God, and the Christmas star?? I think there was a starship. I know you have no science or evidence otherwise. Game over. Nonsense. The tower may have allowed them to live forever, upon reaching the spiritual level. Why else would they be so gung ho to do it?? Nothing contradictory about a spiritual level at the time of Babel. Nothing unclear about that level having gone at the universe change. The spinning of wheels only exists in your head. Work on that. So you offer that as your case. OK. Noted.

So the "new heaven" that is different from the old heaven from the Babel story is not quite ready yet? It is just being "prepared?"How does that help your previous claims? Not at all, I imagine. But you KNOW that the heaven of Babel was SOOOOO close and PHYSICAL and GOD took it away (how soon after the flood?? and why??) and you KNOW that Jesus moved heaven (into a previously unknown spiritual realm?). Where was heaven and what was heaven in between? Do you have any scriptual support for any of your answers?P.S. I think "don't really know" comes from not having answers from your pet website. Read the fucking bible. Read the fucking bible. In context and then read this thread again and research and then read the fucking bible again and rinse and repeat.Your answers might still be there. Who knows?Believing in our own ability to be Mulder can cloud our ability to think beyond Mulder.

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"You are metaphysicians. You can prove anything by metaphysics; and having done so, every metaphysician can prove every other metaphysician wrong--to his own satisfaction. You are anarchists in the realm of thought. And you are mad cosmos-makers. Each of you dwells in a cosmos of his own making, created out of his own fancies and desires. You do not know the real world in which you live, and your thinking has no place in the real world except in so far as it is phenomena of mental aberration." -The Iron Heel by Jack London"Hazards exist that are not marked" - some bar in Chelsea

Asking for one's opinion on what they are debating is not related to drugs, sorry that seems a bit foreign yo you in your present frame of mind. If one tells me that ship does not fit the bill, I have every right to ask what they think would, if anything. Focus. No, that is madness. First, I guessed at how high the spiritual level might have been, that men could build a tower to it. Maybe they were better builders, and it could have been higher.Next, in no way did I ever for an instant dream that there was such a spiritual level at the time of Christ. Someone got a real wong number there, and some serious wires crossed. I clearly say that the universe is not the same state after Babel, and there is no longer any such level. Pay attention, before talking. Sure. What measurements do you mean?? Spiritual ones?? Physical ones??? Do tell. No. False. You might be thinking about how there was a 'paradise under the earth??? If so, that never needed to be moved. Just the inhabitants there! Jesus went up, to a spiritual heaven somewhere. Then, He prepared a place for Christians, that is New Jerusalem, that is what most refer to as 'heaven'. It is the place God lives, and we will live forever. Don't blame me for your own misconceptions. Ha. A complete misunderstanding, ridiculous. There was NO heaven thousands of feet, or thousands of miles up when Jesus rose. The realities of the Babel state were long gone. Period. Don't repeat this nonsense again. I PROPOSED that maybe they, for example could have come from those places. Focus. IF they did, the idea I proposed was that the starship came down to Israel at the time of Jesus' birth. It came to hover over Israel at a height that was NOT visible in far away countries. That is wjhy no records exist in history. BUT, as it was descending, in my example scenario, it came from high up, so that the wise men could see it for a short while, heading for Israel. One assume that they had knowledge of other things that allowed them to clue in it was special, so they went there to see for themselves. UFO's were not expected to be recorded, generally. Of course it was a localized event as explained, except for the possible UFO landing the wise men may have seen, to add to what they already may have known. I think of heaven as a real big place. Not just the spiritual level that was above that part of earth near Babel.The fact that they tried to build up to it there, can be referred to as trying to build a tower to heaven, though, of course. The universe change that left us this way, separated the spiritual from the physical, I posit. Not just that spiritual level near Babel. but our entire universe!! The fabric of matter, fundamental forces, light, gravity, and everything. The onset of radioactive decay, for example. We were left in a PO universe, (Physical Only).What changed for angels, and spirits that used to hang out in the spiritual level of the time of Babel, and before, was that they found themselves separate from the dimension of man. They just ain't here no more in the way they were. They can, of course visit here still, from their home, but they don't live here. We don't know if there was a paradise below the earth before the universe state change. We do know there was a heaven not that high up. At the time of Jesus, there was a place, apparently under the earth that was some sort of paradise. Possibly a temporary arrangement. Of course there is still is a spiritual realm under the earth, hell. But that's another story. Well, we really just don't know all that. Why men would have apparently become immortal, upon reaching the spiritual level, is beyond our PO grasp. Just like why eating the tree of life would have reversed the curse, and allowed us to live forever! That had to be stopped as well. Such big questions for such a little thread. My opinion is that Babel had almost nothing to do with it. It just happened to happen at the time of a big change in the universe God needed to effect. The change that was foretold before the flood, that something was coming down in 120 years for man.It was about that time also, that the continents separated, and our lifespans were on the way down down down. (usually we think of the graph for that starting at the flood, but this was 101 years after the flood, or so, and we could drop the lifespans right at this point!!!)Heaven was within reach of the physical then. At least part of it. We can no longer build up to the spiritual level. Jesus is the stairway to heaven!

Your opinion.49:10 - The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."...by Judah is meant the tribe, and to say a tribe shall not depart from the tribe, is not only a tautology, but scarcely sense; it rather signifies dominion, power, and authority, as the sceptre always does, it being an emblem of it, see (Numbers 24:17) (Zechariah 10:11) and this intends either the government, which was in the heads and princes of the tribe, which commenced as soon as it became a tribe, and lasted as long as it remained one, even unto the times of the Messiah; or kingly power and government, which the sceptre is generally thought to be an emblem of, "
Genesis 49 - Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org David died remember. The ultimate fulfillment comes from the Messiah, that came from David. David did depart before Shiloh go here! David never had a sceptre! David did not look down on Shiloh from afar. No sense pretending yours is the only opinion. there is a lot of opinions. I know the ark is in heaven. If they "find" "the" ark, it is a fake. If it carbon dates to the right time, it is because it is the replica. You know no different. Not at all! It says the sceptre, representing God's rule. will not depart, till Jesus comes. Stop making stuff up. Them make sure you are clear about what ting is what. It says they went to the house. It never names the city. Way back in Bethlehem, it was a stinking manger. So, we can rule that out. Mary was living in Nazareth, and the bible time lines have quite a bit of time here, so why would she NOT have gone home???? That is what one would expect she would do. Not cluck in some barn, in some town she had only went to on short term business. That is as ridiculous as saying a lady gave birth at the airport, and should still be there 2 years later!!! Absurd. Well I did see the movie ten commandments. Ha. Now, smoke and "fire" do not need to be the physical kind we think of and know. That is silly. Need proof?? Look at the fire in the bush that burned!!! It was not physical fire! Jesus spoke ill of them as well. They were His enemies, and liars, and known to pay great sums to fool people into thinking He never arose. The records of that day can not be trusted. Obviously. No. I disagree. You never started an ark thread. So too bad, I don't have all night for side issues. You need to be clear on that thing you are talking about. The point was that in both arks, He did stuff. One time, He had coes cart the ark back to a place. No humans needed. Don't leave God out of the ark picture. Start a thread, or forget it. Like I would let you derail a thread, given every opportunity to start an ark thread? No.I said my piece on that.

He was a paranoid delusional. Prove it. What info could a star give, that the starship of the Almighty could not?? It was the wheels of the Father. It was a throne. It flew. It was up high. The Christmas star was high, and seemed to fly, guiding the wise men. Coincidence?? It was also His son below! Coincidence??? He had said already He would see Shiloh from afar off. Coincidence? God is the One recorded in the bible as having the sceptre. Coincidence? There was a host near the manger, and Ezekiel's wheels, coincidence? Angesl too. Coincidence? The starship had the ability to give the shepherds a close encounter, (again the heavenly host was heard) and great light that shone down. Coincidence? You now claim that no UFO can be seen for 1000 miles. Interesting.The space station can be seen from earth. In fact, from it, '''
"The first two modules of the station were launched andjoined in 1998. The first crew arrivedin 2000. Currently, American astronaut Peggy Whitson is on board with Russian cosmonauts Valery Korzun and Sergei Treschev, circling the Earth every 90 minutes at over 17,000 mph. When it is directly overhead, it is about 400 kilometers (250 miles) high."
404If it was visible say, for four minutes, at 250 miles up, traveling 17,000 miles per hour, would we not see it more than a thousand miles away?? Then, shouldn't your posts speak for themselves??? I haven't seen that happening. Why is that??? The nations may have been on good terms, but knowledge was not limited to politics then. The wise men traveled, so it is safe to assume that knowledge could travel as well. You cannpt lock it up in Persia, just because it has a Jewish gal there. Nice try. Yes, you really don't think it flew!!!!!! You really don't think it had God in it up there!!! Or His throne!!!! How about angels, can you manage those??? Or are they fairy tales as well in your books??? I think we are starting to see where you are coming from here. Edited by simple, : No reason given.