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Author Topic:   Robin, Catholic Scientist and Charles Discussion
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 1 of 21 (319222)
06-08-2006 5:21 PM


This is a Great Debate limited to Robin, CK and CS


Hi - the genesis of the chat that has taken over the tail-end of another thread can be seen here:
http://EvC Forum: Morality and Subjectivity -->EvC Forum: Morality and Subjectivity
I writes:
I've said it before and I'll say it again - everyone we have here is generally pretty convinced of their position. I actually don't know very much about the position that Robin takes and I don't think than a desire to know more has to take place in the normal point-scoring manner we have around here. I think we could do with a few more threads where we just chat.
I am not interested in carrying this on as a debate - this is a dialogue and I am keen to try and keep it this way. It's an opportunity for a couple of us (I'd like Catholic scientist to carry on with us if he'd like as well) to talk out our positions and for others to consider how we got there. It does not require anyone to point out "you are wrong about X,y,z".
Belong is the start of the conversation that occured in the tailend of a previous thread
Would there be any objection from mod/admin from us carrying this on in the coffee shop or would you prefer it somewhere else?
Robin writes:
Nihilism (as I use the term, perhaps eccentrically) is a certain view about the human condition. Briefly, it can be summarized with the idea that human life has no "formal purpose." The formal purpose is the purpose for which something is made. The formal purpose of a hammer, for example, is to drive nails. You could use it for some other purpose, such as knocking someone in the head, but that would not be its formal purpose.
Human beings have no formal purpose, assuming no god. They were made by nature, and nature had nothing "in mind" when it made them since nature has no mind. We are just here, hanging about. Formally speaking, we are useless.
Catholic Scientist writes:
human life has no "formal purpose."
From a nihilistic POV, we aren't any different than the other animals. So this whole planet is pointless then? That's ghey.
Not only do I not agree with the idea, I really dislike it. We might as well all go kill ourselves as there's no point in us being here (other than maybe some of us like being here). It just seems to remove some of the flare of living when there's no point.
We are just here, hanging about. Formally speaking, we are useless.
Yeah, that's depressing. But try telling that to nature when we're ripping it a new asshole. Perhaps we have some use afterall. Nature's self destruct mechanism, perhaps?
Theistically, the higher purpose thing is rewarding. Adding purpose to your life, even if its all false, at least gives you something to live for, it gives you something to do. Otherwise, I'm working all day just waiting to die.
If I were to embrace nihilism, I think I'd have to go for hedonism. I'd just work all day so I could get drunk and fuck all night. But from a theistic POV, it isn't all that rewarding. It seems like there is some other reason I'm here. I like Jesus' teachings, it makes me happy.
Robin writes:
It's not necesarily negative that we have no formal purpose. It's just that, whether negative or positive, we don't have one. We make up purposes of our own, of course. Often they change. Someone's purpose at age 20 might be quite different from his purpose at age 35.
Using the hammer to knock someone in the head might be compared to our subjective or personal purposes. The only way we might have a formal purpose is if we were made by a being rather than nature. Some might say, "I was made by my parents, not nature." My response to that would be that our parents were the assembly line workers. The designer, Nature, is back in the office.
Charles writes:
Ok - as I mentioned previously I'm not interested in any point-scoring or even challenging you on any particular point - so if the questions seem softball - they are intended to be. I'm just interested in the journey that you've been on.
Let me start at the start - have you ever being a believer? in a god? gods?
(by the way this is a chat so if you don't want to answer questions - just say "no comment" or the like) and we will move on.
Robin writes:
No, never. I was raised by my Dad who never brought the subject up at all. I did go to midnight mass once with my Mom, but it was in Latin and I couldn't understand it. What I recall most were the pretty girls in the hats sitting just ahead of me. They were beauties.
charles writes:
So when do you think you first started to think in a serious manner "what's out there/what's not out there?"
I think I was about 13 or 14 - I was nominally christian but the more I read the book, the less it made sense to me (well besides as a story).
Robin writes:
I think when I went off to college, age 18. I got very interested in philosophy and almost majored in it, but I liked writing so much I went with Lit.
In my twenties, I called myself an "aesthete," but then I decided that sounded effeminate, remindful of Oscar Wilde or someone like that, so I changed it to "nihilist," which has a rugged masculine ring to it. But it's basically the same idea, in another form.
So I really haven't changed at all, in all that time. I'm 57.
catholic Scientist writes:
I didn't realize you posted for Charles, the whole ck when over my head. I'll let you guys chat this one out.
charles writes:
Well look - you'd round us out nicely - a believer, an atheist (or maybe I'm a agnostic - we can discuss it) and a nihilist.
So let me ask you the same - how do you come to your faith? has it always been there?
catholic scientist writes:
I was raised Catholic, grade school and high school.
Then I went to college and was an atheist.
Then I found faith in Jesus again.
That makes me a christian and since I was raised Catholic I figured I'd call myself that. I haven't been to church in a while though.
I'm one of those "cafeteria catholics" (from The DaVinci Code).
Charles to Robin writes:
Interesting - I notice that you identify yourself as a "tentative" nihilist - why are you tentative - is it because you think it's impossible for the human mind to know for certain or are you considering "other options"? such as christianity?
Charles to Catholic scientist writes:
Can I ask further - was it a sudden thing or did you came back to god over a period of time?
(as with Robin - please feel free to say "no comment" to any questions you don't want to answer).
Robin writes:
I don't know if it's impossible or not to know. I have a certain belief in Logic. (My attempts at logic have been treated with contempt on this board). But I keep thinking about it, trying to figure it out. Obviously, I don't know for sure. The apparent accidental nature of life leads to me believe that it's all accidental.
Edited by CK, : edit in content
Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.
Edited by CK, : corrected quotes.
Edited by AdminModulous, : just correcting a spelling in the thread title. Catholc -> Catholic

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 5:24 PM CK has replied
 Message 3 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 5:26 PM CK has replied
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 06-08-2006 5:29 PM CK has replied
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-15-2006 8:42 AM CK has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 21 (319225)
06-08-2006 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
06-08-2006 5:21 PM


Apparently we're automatically in. You used to be awfully rough on the Christians, CK. You seem less so now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:21 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:36 PM robinrohan has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 21 (319226)
06-08-2006 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
06-08-2006 5:21 PM


well piss.
I just typed up a long reply to your last message with the last line being... more to come I'm out of time.
When I hit the button it said the thread was closed and the message is now lost.
I'll retype it later when I have time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:21 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 21 (319229)
06-08-2006 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by CK
06-08-2006 5:21 PM


If you want it can be moved to the Great Debate and limited to just the three of you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:21 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:34 PM AdminJar has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 5 of 21 (319232)
06-08-2006 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminJar
06-08-2006 5:29 PM


Yes could you do that please?
The three of us can agree if we wants others in there or if the debate becomes more suitable for a general forum.
Is that ok with you two? - I think it's valuable at the stage to keep it to just the three of us - no pressure to reply, not lots of people jumping in.
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 6 of 21 (319233)
06-08-2006 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by robinrohan
06-08-2006 5:24 PM


I think the reason I'm less "rough" on the christians might be relevent to the thread and I'll get into it in a bit.
Carrying with our conversation -
RR writes:
The apparent accidental nature of life leads to me believe that it's all accidental
Are you therefore not convinced or even em.. what's the word... semi-sorta-maybe convinced by the arguments about complexity that are put forward by various christians and in particular the ID crowd?
Does any of that appeal to you? even at the "must look into this further?" level?
On an entirely subjective and individual level sometimes I sit out in the park by my place and the sun is shinning and the flowers are out and I think... em maybe (does that make sense? as a response at the individual level).
Edited by CK, : No reason given.
Edited by CK, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 5:24 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 5:47 PM CK has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 21 (319236)
06-08-2006 5:39 PM


Thread moved here from the Coffee House forum.

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 8 of 21 (319237)
06-08-2006 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by New Cat's Eye
06-08-2006 5:26 PM


Yes please I'd be very interested in your input when you get time.
Regards
Charles

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-08-2006 5:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-14-2006 10:25 AM CK has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 21 (319239)
06-08-2006 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by CK
06-08-2006 5:36 PM


Are you therefore not convinced or even em.. what's the word... semi-sorta-maybe convinced by the arguments about complexity that are put forward by various christians and in particular the ID crowd?
Does any of that appeal to you? even at the "must look into this further?" level?
The Id crowd means nothing to me. But there are other things.
On an entirely subjective and individual level sometimes I sit out in the park by my place and the sun is shinning and the flowers are out and I think... em maybe (does that make sense? as a response at the individual level).
Yes, of course I know what you mean. But I'm more interested in the misery of human existence. That turns me on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:36 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 5:09 AM robinrohan has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 10 of 21 (319878)
06-10-2006 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by robinrohan
06-08-2006 5:47 PM


(oh my head - a combination of work,booze,work,booze has kept it away for a bit).
Robin writes:
But I'm more interested in the misery of human existence. That turns me on.
How does such a worldview frame your interactions with other people? Do many people know you are a nihilist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by robinrohan, posted 06-08-2006 5:47 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by robinrohan, posted 06-10-2006 10:44 PM CK has replied
 Message 13 by robinrohan, posted 06-12-2006 6:40 AM CK has replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 21 (320293)
06-10-2006 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by CK
06-10-2006 5:09 AM


Do many people know you are a nihilist?
No. I would never discuss it--unless I am anonymous.
Tell me about your changes in ideas--if there is any.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 5:09 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by CK, posted 06-11-2006 4:56 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 12 of 21 (320428)
06-11-2006 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by robinrohan
06-10-2006 10:44 PM


ok it's not a change of ideas but rather attitude - I'll post someone later after thinking about how best to frame it.

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 Message 11 by robinrohan, posted 06-10-2006 10:44 PM robinrohan has not replied

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 21 (320699)
06-12-2006 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by CK
06-10-2006 5:09 AM


How does such a worldview frame your interactions with other people?
No effect at all on personal interactions as far as I know. I find it hard to be interested in public matters--the burning political questions, etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by CK, posted 06-10-2006 5:09 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by CK, posted 06-12-2006 8:43 AM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 18 by CK, posted 06-18-2006 10:04 AM robinrohan has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 14 of 21 (320730)
06-12-2006 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by robinrohan
06-12-2006 6:40 AM


I've almost finished something and will post it up late - it's odd how those things raddle around your head but then it's difficult to get them down on paper!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by robinrohan, posted 06-12-2006 6:40 AM robinrohan has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 21 (321399)
06-14-2006 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by CK
06-08-2006 5:41 PM


FYI
I'm still interested in this discussion....had a long busy weekend.
I've got a lot of work to do right now but I should be able to reply later this afternoon.
I've got a lot of posts to reply to in another thread as well. This site is becomming time consuming!
ABE:
looks like I won't be posting today, damn job is getting in the way of everything
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : ABE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by CK, posted 06-08-2006 5:41 PM CK has not replied

  
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