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Author
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Topic: God & the Fairy Tree
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 11 of 306 (407361)
06-25-2007 10:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by pbee
06-25-2007 8:58 PM
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pbee writes: ... for anyone truly quantifying the available possibilities regarding the origin of life, to the distaste of many, there will always be one outstanding theory in the pack. Yes, the outstanding theory on the origin of life is abiogenesis and the outstanding theory on the diversity of life is evolution. What does that have to do with God or fairies?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by pbee, posted 06-25-2007 8:58 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 12 by pbee, posted 06-25-2007 10:45 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 13 of 306 (407363)
06-25-2007 10:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 12 by pbee
06-25-2007 10:45 PM
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I don't know if you got a chance to read the OP. If I understand it, the question is: What's the difference between a child's concept of invisible (and timid) fairies and an adult's concept of an invisible (and timid) God? Would you care to address the topic instead of displaying your misunderstanding of science?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 12 by pbee, posted 06-25-2007 10:45 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by pbee, posted 06-25-2007 11:05 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 16 of 306 (407368)
06-25-2007 11:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 15 by pbee
06-25-2007 11:05 PM
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pbee writes: I commented to the OP by giving my views on the topic in a responsible and receptive way. So humour me.  Explain in plain English the difference between a child's belief in invisible fairies and an adult's belief in an invisible God.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by pbee, posted 06-25-2007 11:05 PM | | pbee has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: I thought of a difference
Catholic Scientist writes: There aren't a lot of intellectually mature people saying that the sign is correct and that the fairies do exist like there are for god. Isn't the question about how you can tell? If person A believes in invisible X and person B believes in invisible Y, how do you determine which is "intellectually mature"?
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: I thought of a difference
Catholic Scientist writes: You can't tell who's "intellectually mature"? Why not? I don't see how "intellectual maturity" relates directly to beliefs. Beliefs tend to be non-intellectual, don't they? You're just adding another variable. Person A believes in invisible X and is "intellectually mature" because of M. Person B believes in invisible Y and is not "intellectually mature" because of not M. You haven't shown how M relates to X and Y.
Do you think I am? Even the "intellectually mature" can have their foibles.
I thought the question was 'what's the difference'. It assumes that the difference is 'tell-able'. I think the implicit answer to the question is that there is no difference.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: I thought of a difference
Catholic Scientist writes: I haven't added anything and don't even see the phrase 'becauase of' in my post. You added the variable of "intellectual maturity" and implied that belief in God is different because theists are "intellectual mature". You haven't established that theists are more "intellectually mature" than fairyists or shown how you can determine "intellectual maturity".
One is an obvious joke and the other is to be taken seriously. I think what the OP suggests is that one is a joke that nobody takes seriously and one is a joke that is taken seriously by theists.
The difference is there and the question is why? or What makes them different. The question isn't why they "are" different. The question is why some people think they're different.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: I thought of a difference
Catholic Scientist writes: The variable of intellectual maturity was in the op, I didn't add it. The OP speaks of intellectual immaturity. You seem to be claiming that "other" maturity cancels out some of the immaturity.
I'm saying that there are people who are intellectual mature who also believe in god, so belief in god can be intellectually mature. If somebody is generally mature, it doesn't follow that all (or any) of his beliefs are mature.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: I thought of a difference
mike the wiz writes: God isn't clearly a joke. Not all jokes are clear. The topic isn't about the clarity of humour. It's about why some people "get" some jokes and other people don't.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 06-26-2007 11:16 AM | | mike the wiz has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 109 of 306 (407631)
06-27-2007 11:40 AM
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Reply to: Message 108 by pbee
06-27-2007 11:20 AM
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Re: Intellectually immature: definition
pbee writes: Comparing fairies to God and faith is about equivalent to comparing a Skateboard to a Bus. But the topic isn't about comparing skateboards to buses. It's about comparing the belief in skateboards to the belief in buses. Why is it "reasonable" to believe in buses but not in skateboards?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 108 by pbee, posted 06-27-2007 11:20 AM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 113 by pbee, posted 06-27-2007 12:27 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 112 of 306 (407637)
06-27-2007 12:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 110 by Rahvin
06-27-2007 11:57 AM
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Rahvin writes: As I said twice in my examples, absence of evidence IS, in fact, evidence of absence if the evidence has been repeatedly sought and no sign has ever been found. Or... absence of evidence can indicate lack of suitable instrumentation.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 110 by Rahvin, posted 06-27-2007 11:57 AM | | Rahvin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 121 by Rahvin, posted 06-27-2007 1:27 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 115 of 306 (407643)
06-27-2007 12:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 113 by pbee
06-27-2007 12:27 PM
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Consider Columbus
pbee writes: Faith in God rests on numerous measurable accounts and facts. No. It doesn't. That statement rests on a profound misunderstanding of what faith is. Faith is the evidence of things not seen, not measurable. Faith is for where there are no facts.
Unless of course, someone feels that fairies could somehow compete with God. Well, of course they could. Have you ever heard of Columbus? Before he did his experiment, it was well known that the earth was round and its circumference was known to a reasonable approximation. Columbus believed that he could sail west from Europe to Asia, but the prevailing wisdom was that it was too far - the existing equipment couldn't span the gap. There were (at least) three different points of view: - There was a huge God-like landmass in the way.
- There was a flotilla of fairy-like islands in the way.
- There was nothing but empty ocean in the way.
Until the equipment was available, until the experiment was done, there was no way of knowing which point of view was correct. All three points of view were equivalent. In spite of all the bluster by theists, we have no way of knowing if there is a God or fairies or both. And in spite of all the bluster by atheists, we have no way of knowing that there isn't. Edited by Ringo, : @#$% spellling! Edited by Ringo, : More @#$% spellinge! @#$%$#@%$#@!
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 113 by pbee, posted 06-27-2007 12:27 PM | | pbee has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 118 of 306 (407647)
06-27-2007 1:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 114 by Phat
06-27-2007 12:36 PM
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Re: Intellectually immature: definition
Phat writes: Fairies never had a hand in creating the universe.... How do you know that? Just because King James never wrote a book about them? Edited by Ringo, : Capitalization.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 114 by Phat, posted 06-27-2007 12:36 PM | | Phat has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 122 by pbee, posted 06-27-2007 1:28 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 123 of 306 (407656)
06-27-2007 1:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 120 by pbee
06-27-2007 1:20 PM
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Re: Consider Columbus
pbee writes: Can we say that the OP was asking(simply) "Why do people choose to believe in something they cannot touch or see?" I'd say the OP is asking: When we choose which invisible, untouchable entity to believe in, why do we feel a need to ridicule all the others? I'd say the answer is: There is no "reason". Reason doesn't enter into it. It's faith.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by pbee, posted 06-27-2007 1:20 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 127 by pbee, posted 06-27-2007 1:49 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 126 of 306 (407659)
06-27-2007 1:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 121 by Rahvin
06-27-2007 1:27 PM
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Rahvin writes: However, to say "neither x nor y has ever been seen, anywhere, at any time. Neither has there ever been observed any indirect evidence of their existence. There may be an x, or a y, in my intended path" would be unreasonable. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that "there might be something in my path that has never been observed before".
"Really, probably not" seems to be the more reasonable response, however. I don't see how you can assign a probability to the unknown.
To believe in God despite a lack of evidence is identical to belief in the fairies in the fairy tree to the outside observer. I agree.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 121 by Rahvin, posted 06-27-2007 1:27 PM | | Rahvin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 130 by Rahvin, posted 06-27-2007 2:01 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 437 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 128 of 306 (407661)
06-27-2007 1:53 PM
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Reply to: Message 122 by pbee
06-27-2007 1:28 PM
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Re: Intellectually immature: definition
pbee writes: If you were to provide me with evidence that fairies are in some way implicated in the creation of the universe and that the evidence precedes the scriptures on the timeline then I would certainly change my views on that. Easy. Take whatever evidence you have, erase the word "God" and insert the word "fairies". And "scriptures" have no bearing whatsoever on the accuracy of a belief.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 122 by pbee, posted 06-27-2007 1:28 PM | | pbee has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 129 by pbee, posted 06-27-2007 2:00 PM | | ringo has not replied |
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