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Author Topic:   What is a soul?
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 42 of 191 (367597)
12-03-2006 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Hyroglyphx
12-03-2006 6:11 PM


Re: The soul, enslimed but undaunted
To suggest that people are 'random collections of cells' or 'chemical soup' is fallacious on the grounds of reductionism.
You're recycling an old rhetorical cliche. One asks 'What's a human being worth?' One then calculates the value of the water, salt, zinc and other materials contained in the human body and concludes that a human being is worth, say, only four euros. The idea is to force the listener into concluding the existence of a soul because, after all, everyone feels they are worth more than four euros.
Fallacies follow as soon as the soul is proposed as a solution to this non-existant problem.
First, the proposal appeals to bias, not reason. It assumes we consider ourselves of more 'worth' than four euros for reasons we can't rationally explain (the reason being mainly emotional). The soul is offered as a rationalization. Second, the proposed solution assumes that the existence of a soul as defined in the speaker's own personal belief system is the only alternative to being worth only four euros. The whole thing equivocates, of course, on the idea of 'worth'. Many kinds of worth exist but the argument takes no notice.
None of this adds up. To illustrate, I offer Exhibit A: the banana slug.
Note that the banana slug is more than a random collection of chemicals or cells. This is a functioning organism. It possesses integrated physical features. It possesses appetites, intentions, senses, the ability to learn and to reproduce. It feels pain and, in the face of threats to its life, will endeavor to preserve itself.
A banana slug is a living being.
Where are the theologians arguing for a soul for this creature? By your argument the banana slug must surely possess one. We are not looking here at some random collection of chemicals. We see an integrated, living creature that possesses this undeniable quality of slugness. In assigning it the name 'slug' we recognize that it amounts to more than the sum of its chemical parts. It is a totality, a unity.
On the grounds you have suggested there is no reason to deny this creature its soul. So what do you say? Does it have one?
__
Edited by Archer Opterix, : ongoing quest for literary perfection.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-03-2006 6:11 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-03-2006 11:00 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 45 of 191 (367616)
12-04-2006 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Hyroglyphx
12-03-2006 11:00 PM


Re: The soul, enslimed but undaunted
n-j:
Am I reducing the worth of a human being or are they? See, we have one group that claims that humans are no different, than say, your banana slug. Each has equal value.
I'm not sure this is a fair statement of anyone's position. Who says they have 'equal value'? And what is that person's measure of value? Can you offer some quotes here?
It is certainly not a statement of science. The question of 'value' is philosophical, not scientific. You seem to be discussing (what you take to be) the implications of science here rather than actual methods or findings.
If we have equal value, then what makes the slug, a slug? Aren't we all made of matter? Or is there something transcendental at work in the lives of either us, the slug, or both?
Leaving aside any assertions about value, I'd say living things consist of both matter and energy. Everyone knows this. That's one reason why talking about living things as if they only consisted of matter is to be reductionist.
I'd also say many living things are complex. They consist of multiple living units (cells) organized and specialized in ways that result in a larger living unit (organism). Some complex living units are so organized (brain cells, nervous system) as to possess consciousness and decision-making intelligence.
How transcendent is that? I don't know. Transcendence appears to be relative. A self-sustaining, self-replicating combination of matter and energy will appear transcendent compared to inert matter that lacks this kind of energy. A large complex creature with a brain enabling self-awareness and conscious choices will appear transcendent compared to single-celled creatures lacking such potential. There's plenty of transendence in this picture. But I don't see how any of it proves what you want it to prove.
My impression is that the ancients used the word soul to describe the energy aspects of living things where they used the word body to describe the material aspects. That's pretty much how the usage goes, isn't it?
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : spelling.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Hyroglyphx, posted 12-03-2006 11:00 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 51 of 191 (367854)
12-05-2006 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-05-2006 2:32 PM


Re: The soul, enslimed but undaunted
An organism is nothing more than a complicated compound object.
Spoken like a true godless materialist. But your definition overlooks something crucial.
Life itself.
Most people would say the quality of being alive has something to do with defining an object as an organism.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-05-2006 2:32 PM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-06-2006 2:40 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 53 of 191 (367898)
12-06-2006 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by 2ice_baked_taters
12-06-2006 2:40 AM


Re: The soul, enslimed but undaunted
I see that your definition of 'soul', to the extent that you have offered one, makes it synonymous with 'life.'
Organisms are just complex compound clumps of matter, you say. What separates them from other clumps of matter is that they happen to be animated. You call this animating energy 'soul.'
'Soul' is the ingredient that makes material entities metabolize and reproduce and have experiences. It's the thing at work in your body that makes you a living, functioning personality rather than a lump of material stretched on a table in a med school. To be a soul is to have life.
All very well.
It follows from this that 'soul', as you define it, is a feature of all living creatures. You are a soul, the banana slug is a soul, the redwood tree the slug lives on is a soul. To be an organism is to be a soul.
Is this your view?
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : ongoing quest for literary perfection.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : ever ongoing.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo repair.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-06-2006 2:40 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 12-10-2006 5:55 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 113 of 191 (372248)
12-26-2006 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
12-25-2006 9:11 AM


as if the chart were given
Thanks for mentioning this. If you're charting the placement of a group you really do have to take into account the range of beliefs and certainty allowed individual members. The Anglican/Episcopalian and Unitarian groups would appear as large ovals indeed while Jehovah's Witness and foot-washing Baptist groups would appear as much more focused points.
___
(title supplied by Emily Dickinson)

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 12-25-2006 9:11 AM jar has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 188 of 191 (380844)
01-29-2007 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by Greatest I am
01-28-2007 9:53 PM


Re: The soul
GIAM:
The soul is born when the Holy Spirit enters the body of the fetus at the exact moment of conception. At this time God considers this entity a human in progress. As it is. This connection with God through the Holy Spirit never ends. I may have used the wrong word in fetus but I am not sere if they give a name for such a small number of cells. Regardless God is there. This soul is the recording machine of all we are and upon death caries our essence to God.
A beautiful idea. My congratulations on working this out so clearly to your satisfaction.
Your suspicions are correct about the inappropriate wording, though. Here is the statement as it appears with correct terms employed.

The soul is born when the the spirit of Ishtar enters the egg at the exact moment of conception. At this time Marduk considers this entity a human in progress. As it is. This connection with Marduk through the spirit of Ishtar never ends. This soul is the recording machine of all we are and upon death caries our essence to Marduk.
Just as beautiful. Just as valid. And better biology.
___

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by Greatest I am, posted 01-28-2007 9:53 PM Greatest I am has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Greatest I am, posted 01-29-2007 2:22 PM Archer Opteryx has replied
 Message 191 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 01-30-2007 12:52 AM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 190 of 191 (381016)
01-29-2007 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Greatest I am
01-29-2007 2:22 PM


Re: The soul
Marduk and Ishtar are Assyro-Babylonion deities.
Maruk's most famous feat was battling Tiamat, a multi-headed sea dragon, at the beginning of the world. He scattered the beast's remains in celebration of his victory over the forces of chaos. The story is echoed in Psalm 74 with YHWH and Leviathan standing in for their Mesopotamian counterparts.
NRSV:

You divided the sea by your might;
you broke the heads of the dragons in the waters.
You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness.
You cut openings for springs and torrents;
you dried up ever-flowing streams.
Yours is the day, yours also the night;
you established the luminaries and the sun.
You have fixed all the bounds of the earth;
you made summer and winter.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : detail.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Greatest I am, posted 01-29-2007 2:22 PM Greatest I am has not replied

  
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