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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 81 of 479 (470122)
06-09-2008 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Brian
06-08-2008 5:08 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Brian writes:
God knows the future because He is God?
How could God pass on prophecies if He didn't know the future?
Why do you insist on making God a Man?
Man is constrained by time.
God exists in one great big eternal now.
He can see Himself walking in the garden talking with the first man and also see you standing before Him at the Great White Throne Judgment arguing your case that He should have convinced you to believe in Him and trust Him for salvation at the same time.
BTW God does not create people. My Mom had an egg that was fertilized by my Father's sperm and I am the result of that union. God only made it possible that could happen.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Brian, posted 06-08-2008 5:08 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Brian, posted 06-10-2008 1:32 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 82 of 479 (470130)
06-09-2008 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Legend
06-08-2008 7:20 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Legend writes:
Freewill has nothing to do with it. You're talking about boundaries set by god for mankind, not for himself. Sin is just a concept in God's mind, not something he has no control over. God chooses to be offended by sin, he doesn't have to. It's like me giving my young daughter a painting set and saying "right, you can draw whatever you like but if you use yellow I'm going to disown you!". In reality, her choice of colors doesn't make any difference to me whatsoever. It's only if I try to be a bullying, controlling father that I'll impose such meaningless restrictions.
But that is not the choice God gave man.
His choice was similar to the one I gave my two boys when they got to the point they thought they knew better what they should be allowed to do or not to do. I told them as long as they sat at my table and ate my food and slept in my house they would obey the rules I gave them. If they chose to do otherwise they could find them a place to park their bodies and acquire their needs.
God made man and placed him in a perfect environment. Provided him with everything he needed. God then gave him one rule to be able to live and enjoy life in His Garden. There was one tree that man was told he could not eat the fruit from.
Man disobeyed.
God kicked man out of His Garden and man had to earn his own way. No decedent of this man has any claim to God's Garden.
By the choice of this man all mankind was separated from God.
But God made a way man can return to God's Garden.
God offers man a full free pardon through the death of God the Son on the Cross.
No one has to accept that offer but anyone can.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Legend, posted 06-08-2008 7:20 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 5:27 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 98 by Legend, posted 06-09-2008 7:06 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 84 of 479 (470138)
06-09-2008 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Straggler
06-08-2008 7:28 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
Do all realistically have the choice that you claim? Do those raised in India of the Hindu faith have equal access to your form of retribution as you (or, I suppose, I)?
No everyone in the world does not have the same opportunity to hear the gospel and be saved.
Let me make one thing plain the only choice man has is to accept God's offer or refuse it. You can choose to live in heaven but you do not have to choose to go to the lake of fire. That is the present destination of everyone who has not received God's pardon.
Is that God's fault? No.
God gave that job to the decedents of Abraham during the OT days.
God then Gave the Church the job of making disciples, baptizing them and teaching them the things He commanded.
God's Church has failed to do its job. Therefore it is the Churches fault.
The Devil has so poluted the Churches that today most of them belong to him not God.
But there are those who keep sharing the gospel throughout the world.
That is the reason there are some here at EvC that keep on keeping on.
At least you had an opportunity.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Straggler, posted 06-08-2008 7:28 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 5:46 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 86 of 479 (470144)
06-09-2008 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Straggler
06-09-2008 5:27 PM


Re: There was one tree that man was told he could not eat tRe: atonement, what atonement?
Straggler writes:
But why make the tree? Why make the test? Why make man such that he (or as the story goes - she) would knowingly fail the test? Why make man at all if he knows the fate of man already.
God made man knowing that he would fail the one test that God knowingly gave him and was then outraged at the result of the test.
If man had not disobeyed there would be no you. There would be no me.
Yes God see's man disobeying His rule and at the same time He see's you discussing this topic on EvC. He also see's those trying to share His free pardon with you. He see's your decision and the final conclusion of your case.
As I have said many times with God there is only one great big now.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 5:27 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 88 of 479 (470148)
06-09-2008 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Straggler
06-09-2008 5:46 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
In many (most?) cases this seems to be more a matter of luck in terms of where one was born and what the predominant culture is there. How can God justify condemning an unquestioning hindu from India whilst rewarding an unquestioning Christian from Dallas?
First things first. God does not condemn anyone to anything.
Man is condemned already.
The first man took care of that by separating mankind from God.
Why does God have to justify Himself?
To whom does He have to justify Himself?
It is not God's fault if I have failed Him.
It is not God's fault if the Church has failed Him.
Paul declared the gospel had been preached to the world in his day.
When my ancestors came to America they found natives worshiping the Great Spirit in the happy hunting grounds. Who told them?
Has it ever occured to you that people everywhere have heard of some kind of God. Religion is everywhere.
It is not God's fault if man has failed to teach the all things that Jesus commanded him to.
God Bless,
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 5:46 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:32 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 89 of 479 (470150)
06-09-2008 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Straggler
06-09-2008 5:46 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
So the vast majority of the population of the world today (including myself ) are destined to the fires of hell according to you.
How about according to:
John writes:
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
God said He loved you.
His Son came not to condemn you. But that you might be saved.
You and anybody else is condemned because you/they have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I can not help what you believe. I can only tell you what God said.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : add signature

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 5:46 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 91 of 479 (470152)
06-09-2008 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Legend
06-09-2008 6:05 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Legend writes:
Unless you've created paedophiles and know exactly what they're going to do and when they're going to do it. In which case saying that you love kids and hate paedophiles is grossly hypocritical.
I was under the impression that God created man and woman. From that time on man and woman have created human beings.
I was under the impression that God created the Devil or whatever you want to call him. The Devil deceived the first woman and the man chose the fate of the woman.
From that time until this the Devil and man have been creating all these bad things everyone keeps talking about.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Legend, posted 06-09-2008 6:05 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Legend, posted 06-10-2008 1:51 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 94 of 479 (470155)
06-09-2008 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Straggler
06-09-2008 6:32 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
Nor is it the fault of the Hindu child raised to believe in Hinduism that they do not believe in Jesus Christ.
It is his parents fault.
His parents beliving what they do is their parents fault.
Going all the way back to the ones that knew the truth.
Their destiny was covered in Message 89
Now the biggest question is, do I have it right? I have spent many
hours studying over the past 59 years because I can't afford to be wrong. My eternal destiny depends upon me being right.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:32 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:54 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 95 of 479 (470157)
06-09-2008 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Straggler
06-09-2008 6:45 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
So what does happen to babies who die too young toc comprehend any of this?
You remember the story the devil told the first woman in the garden that when she ate the fruit she would know good from evil.
When a person reaches the age where they know as the first woman and man did in the garden they become accountable for themselves at this time.
There are those because of mental conditions that never reach this point.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:45 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 99 of 479 (470163)
06-09-2008 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Straggler
06-09-2008 6:54 PM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
I blame God. He could have made all know. He could at least have made it a level playing field. Punishing individuals for something over which they have little or no control is just wrong.
Blame anyone you desire to blame.
Straggler writes:
I want nothing to do with this small minded and punitive God. Anyone with a sense of morality should stand up to this despicable tyrant!! Join my crusade!! Fear not the wrath of the tyrant. Good will triumph in the end.
That is exercising your freewill to choose what ever pleases you.
Go for it. Just don't blame me if you are wrong.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Straggler, posted 06-09-2008 6:54 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2008 11:01 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 101 of 479 (470167)
06-09-2008 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Legend
06-09-2008 7:06 PM


Re: atonement, what atonement?
Legend writes:
Man, at that stage, didn't know that what he was doing was bad.
Why did man have to know whether it was good or bad?
He was told if you eat the fruit you will die.
It makes no difference if it is good bad or indifferent.
It was an either or statement.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Legend, posted 06-09-2008 7:06 PM Legend has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 107 of 479 (470336)
06-10-2008 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Brian
06-10-2008 1:32 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Brian writes:
ICANT writes:
Why do you insist on making God a Man?
I'm not.
I'm referring to God as male because the vast majority of the Bible refers to God as male.
I was not talking about sex. I was talking about limiting God as man is limited.
Brian writes:
ICANT writes:
BTW God does not create people. My Mom had an egg that was fertilized by my Father's sperm and I am the result of that union. God only made it possible that could happen.
Who created your soul?
The man and woman that was made in the image of God had a body, mind, and spirit (soul). All of their decendents have all three.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Brian, posted 06-10-2008 1:32 AM Brian has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 108 of 479 (470346)
06-10-2008 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Straggler
06-10-2008 11:01 AM


Re: What is God's purpose?
Straggler writes:
This is like a government making secret laws and then arresting peple when they unknowingly break them. Outrageaous.
Did the Queen come over to your house when you reached the age of understanding and explain the laws in England to you.
Or did your parents teach them to you.
Is the Queen responsible for their decisions to teach you or not to teach you.
If your parents do not teach you then will the bobbies let you go your way because you are ignorant of the laws?
Straggler writes:
If the God you describe ran a nation
First God does not run a Nation.
Second God does not run the planet earth.
The devil runs planet earth within the bounds set by God.
Man has a choice to follow the ways of the world which is controlled by the devil.
OR
Man can choose to follow after the ways of God.
Your choice.
You personally have no one to blame for the outcome but yourself.
Straggler writes:
Honestly ICANT it seems you are too fearful to stand up for what is right.
I got no problem with standing up for what is right.
I wore my country's uniform for that purpose, 3rd Army.
I have fought many battles during my lifetime against many wrongs.
The problem is most of the things I see as wrongs you would see as rights.
Straggler writes:
If he exists it is time we stood up to this tyrant and let him know that such unjust punishments will not be tolerated lying down. If we all stand together we can change these wicked ways.
He does exist.
The devil and a third of the angels of heaven tried to bring God down from His throne and failed. I have a sneaky idea they are a lot more powerful than us mortal beings.
But you are welcome to join the devil and his angels in their battle
against God if you desire. I will warn you I read the final chapter in the book and the devil lost. He ends up in the lake of fire that was prepared for him and his angels.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Straggler, posted 06-10-2008 11:01 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2008 6:56 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 109 of 479 (470352)
06-10-2008 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Legend
06-10-2008 1:51 PM


Re: Interference
Legend writes:
If God is all-powerful and and he does interfere in our lives then he is responsible for bad things happening as well as good ones.
Where did you get the idea from that God interferes with our lives?
Legend writes:
Of course you could claim that God doesn't interfere, in which case nothing, good or bad, is due to him.
God will interfere in the lives of His children. Those who have been born again. He can and does bless them when they are obedient and when they are disobedient He will chastise them.
Why does He do these? Because He loves His children.
If God is not your Father you do not have to obey Him, you can do as you please.
God does not have anything to do with any decision you make or anything you do in this life if you have not been born again.
You only have to answer to your father the devil. His motto is if it feels good do it. That is why most people choose the ways of the world.
Legend writes:
Or you could claim that God isn't all-powerful so he can't stop bad things from happening.
God is all powerful.
God will put an end to all bad things one day in His time.
Legend writes:
Or you could claim that God just doesn't care about mankind, so he allows bad things to happen.
How many people on death row do you know that you would willingly lay down your life so they could be free?
Jesus loved you enough to die so you could get off death row and live eternally, in a better place than the one you are doomed for if you are not born again.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Legend, posted 06-10-2008 1:51 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Legend, posted 06-12-2008 3:25 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 116 of 479 (470724)
06-12-2008 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Straggler
06-11-2008 6:56 PM


Re: Responsibility
Straggler writes:
No but nor was I legally responsible for my actions as a minor.
At what stage in life do you become responsible for your actions in England?
Straggler writes:
The queen is a pointless distraction and complete waste of time and money
I thought she was a very nice lady when I saw her in the Cayman Islands.
I lived in a British Commonwealth for 15 years. Our police force had many young officers come from England, and other UK country's.
One of the men in the Church I was involved in there was a Sergeant so several of the young officers came to services. They are the one's who talked about the bobbies. They also talked about police officers.
Straggler writes:
God makes the rules.
Correction God made the rules. The first man broke them.
God made a covenant with the children of Abraham. That covenant relationship had many rules and benefits if the rules were obeyed.
But that has nothing to do with the condition of man as far as his eternal destiny is concerned.
The only thing involved in that is the first man sold mankind in slavery to the devil.
God made a way man could be redeemed from the fate brought about by the disobedience of the first man.
Straggler writes:
And who allows the devil to run Earth?
The devil was running the earth before man was.
Who created the devil? God did.
Who put the devil in charge of the earth? God did.
If there was no devil there would be no choice.
Straggler writes:
Ignorance, or even objection, to utterly unjustifiable laws is not a reason to blame anyone.
Ignorance of the Law is no excuse. That is the point I was trying to make.
You try to plead ignorance to the Law before a judge and see how far you get with that defense.
Straggler writes:
The point is that the actions that you believe your God takes would be, if carried out by any other being, condemned as evil and wrong by you, me and almost everyone else.
Let me get this straight.
If there was a person on death row and was to be put in the gas chamber for crimes committed. All appeals had be used up the judges have upheld sentence. The man is then scheduled for 6 AM the following day. The President of the US offers a pardon to the person and he refuses the pardon. At the appointed time the sentence is carried out.
Now you want me to jump up and down and scream and hollow that the President should be tarred and feathered because the man would not accept the pardon. By this heinous act the President becomes a tyrant not worthy of existing.
Come on, get real. That is exactly what God did for you. He had someone take your place and serve your sentence. He then offered you a full pardon. It is your choice to receive it or reject it.
Straggler writes:
I am not the one who would justify the condemnation and eternal punishment of those whose only fault is ignorance. You are.
Straggler I have spent 46 years of my life informing people of the consequences of disobedience to God. I have spent much of my income helping others. I have always pastored churches that could not afford to pay a minister. That made it necessary for me to work.
Had I applied myself to just making money as many do I would have more than I could waste in the rest of my life.
So you talk about my unloving God all you want. You call Him a tyrant all you want. He paid your sin debt because He loved you. If you die and end up in the lake of fire it will be your fault I don't care who you want to blame.
Straggler writes:
Which one of us can truly be said to be morally "good" regarding such a question?
I could care less whether you feel more morally good than I am.
I only care that I have done what God said for me to do not what you or anyone else thinks about what I should do, or should not do.
You see that is what makes God so wonderful to me. He knew all my faults and failures. He knew every time I would disobey Him as well as obey Him.
He still loved me enough to forgive me to restore me to the position that the first man was in before he disobeyed and ate the fruit.
Straggler writes:
Join me on this quest
Sorry I have no desire to be free from the restrictions of God.
So you will have to make that journey without me.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Straggler, posted 06-11-2008 6:56 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Straggler, posted 06-12-2008 8:45 AM ICANT has replied

  
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