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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 286 of 479 (492440)
12-31-2008 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by DevilsAdvocate
12-31-2008 9:55 AM


Re: Does the Bible really reflect absolute moratism? I think not!
To me it speaks volumes that Christians cannot even decide amongst themselves, which rules in the Bible to agree should apply, yet they claim their system of morality to be absolute and immutable.
The rules which I think are most important are two:
1.) Jesus is resurrected and alive and in a form in which He can live within His followers.
"the last Adam [Christ] became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
2.) His followers are to receive Him and abide in Him. They are to be in a living union with Him so that He lives out His life again on earth, but this time from within and in union with His followers.
Perhaps the most important exhortation in the New Testament is here:
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandmand ... Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in me.
I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing." (See John 15:1-5)
This abiding in the resurrected and living Christ and allowing Him to abide in us is a mutual incorporation of lives. In a blended way the Christ who is alive then can mingle His reaction and actions with those of the believer/abider. This is the essence of the Christian life.
No, we should not think that we have 700 OT commandments supplemted by several hundred more NT commandments. Rather the chief thing is to realize that Christ is living and that He can live within His believers just as the life of the vine can flow into the attached branches.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-31-2008 9:55 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2009 5:30 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 287 of 479 (492441)
12-31-2008 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Dawn Bertot
12-31-2008 1:01 AM


Re: Re sinless
Bertot writes:
Absolute morality from a Biblical perspective, in the context of the same place the original information was obtained, was discussed in this connection. Whether God exists or whether absolute morality exists, is not in question in the Biblical context. IT DOES.
According to many theists scripture does provide us with a form of absolute morality. However I dispute that this is true in any practical sense.
If scripture does actually provide us with knowledge of absolute morality then two individuals armed with the scriptures and a set of detailed context based moral dilemmas should come to identical conclusions regarding what is right and wrong and what is good and bad according to scripture in their answers to these moral dilemmas.
What are the chances of this actually happening?
Thus your assertions regarding absolute morality existing in scripture remain unfounded in any practical sense.
opening post writes:
If one believes in a God, then why did God send "his son" (himself??) down to earth in order to cleanse mankind of his sins.. When, in fact, he knew that man would sin again???? Does his action make any sense to anyone? How about this? Maybe if he wanted to free us of sin.. Do it, and then say, “OK, everyone come on into heaven! There is no point in making you “suffer” your way into heaven. Just come on up and give praise to me for all eternity.” After all, doesn't He want all of his "children" with him in heaven?
Bertot writes:
Using the scripture to answer the original question or questions as, "Why did God forgive our sins"?, is neither impractical or nonsensical. Where else would the answer come from to discuss the reasons for the original questions or contentions in the first place.
I am well aware of scripture says about why God "forgave" our sins. The way I am interpreting the questions is as to whether the answers from scripture make any actual sense. I don't think that they do.
A God who is the definition of love and forgiveness and yet who condemns the vast majority of humanity to eternal loveless damnation. A God who supposedly loves and forgives each individual but who punishes each individual for the crimes of a single ancestor. A God who setup the bewildering scenario of an apple not to be eaten and a talking snake to coerce so that he could punish, forgive and then punish again those who do not seek forgiveness from the original punishment.
That my friend is a pile of inconsistent and contradictory baloney.
Straggler writes:
Whether the scriptures are internally consistent or not has little bearing on whether or not the idea that a God that already knows everything sends down his "son" to cleanse us of sins that he knows we will continue to perpetrate regardless of this "sacrifice".
Given the concept taught in the scriptures, that God is infinte in knowledge, wisdom and morality, you can still say that it has no bearing on the issue. Your kidding right?
Typically for a believer blinded by faith you do not seek to determine whether or not any of this contradictory nonsense makes sense. Instead you just assert that God knows best and it is not for us to question why.
Straggler writes:
Whether the scriptures are internally consistent or not has little bearing on.........
Also, thanks for the vote of confidence about the scriptures being consistent.
I didn't say they were consistent. I am pretty sure in fact that they are not. The point is that internal consistency is no indicator of actual external sense or truthfulness.
As far as I am aware The Lord of The Rings is internally consistent.
Further, you corroborate the validity and reality of free will, with your statement, that, "we WILL continue to perpetrate regardless of the sacrifice". This implies that a person has a choice to do otherwise.
Actually the statement that "we WILL continue to perpetrate regardless of the sacrifice" doesn't in itself indicate freewill. It could be that we have no choice but to perpetrate, and that we will thus continue do so regardless of any sacrifice.
But as it happens I do broadly believe in freewill so the point is moot.
Your problems in this context is non-resolvable, unless one does as you and others have and dismiss the content and context of free will. You validate the need for Gods mercy in the form of a sacrifice.
I am not sure what any of this means.
However the question remains as to why God needs to sacrifice anything to forgive people of their sins.
The question also remains as to why he doesn't actually forgive us of any sins until we recognise this sacrifice.
The further question remains as to what exactly was sacrificed? Human form? Physical presence? Apparently Jesus lives on in Heaven and can presumably take human form again if he so wishes. So the "sacrifice" seems somehwat limited and hardly worth all the fuss you Christians make of it.
Sacrifice normally involves loss. What was lost? What exactly was sacrificed?
If God does indeed exist and the scriptures in the body of the OT and NT are his Word,one may certainly be justified to ask why he did this or that, if they are willing to look at the entire context.
That is a big IF. And a very one sided perspective.
My perspective is to ask if the whole story regarding sin, punishment, sacrifice, forgiveness and then ultimately more punishment for not recognising this somewhat limited sacrifice actually makes any sense?
Unless you satisfy yourself with the answer that 'God knows best' (as is your entire argument in essence) then the answer to this question is quite obviously - NO.
Your ASSUMPTION is that God is evil for some of his actions as described in the Bible. You are assuming the possibilty of the existence of God in doing this. Question. On what do you base your ASSUMPTION, that he is evil?. Yes you are right, that is quite an assumption. You have no way of knowing what evil or good is in the first place. Your actions as a human being contradict anything that you would qualify you to know what is evil or good is, or the standard to let you out of the starting gates.
Your assumption is that God is evil, for this or that and they are baseless as has been demonstrated. "Man says".....?????. God is only evil if you ASSUME that man has any way of justifying his actions. He does not, it is an exercise in futility.
No ASSUMPTION required. As I have stated before I rationalise any such judgement on a 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you basis'. In my opinion God would fare rather badly on this basis especially given that the vast majority of humanity will apparently burn in hell for a crime they personally did not commit.
However your previously exposed inability to cite a single example of an absolute moral kind of kills your absolutist moral position stone dead regardless of any deficiencies in any alternative positions anyway..........
This is the type of double standard reasoning that designates God as evil, that is both nonsensical and silly. Assumption is the watchword for the Atheist and Agnostic. It erroneously ASSUMES that it/they have a valid method of establishing a standard of morality, and on the basis of this enormous ASSUMPTION, proceed to condemn not only the actions of others, but others assumptions that are based in reality and good evidence. Sounds like a double standard to me.
Assumptions concerning the "evil" of God, no more make them valid, than if we are to assume you have logical and valid way of establishing morality in the first place.
Well I think I do have a valid method of establishing such things. And that on this basis many of Gods actions are pretty dreadful.
Especially when the alternative espoused by you and your fellow literalists consists of supposedly absolute writings that no two people will ever actually interpret or see in the same way. Theists discussing the "absolutes" of morality are no more absolute in their findings than are philosophers. And that is about as non-absolute as it is possible to be.
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Dawn Bertot, posted 12-31-2008 1:01 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by jaywill, posted 12-31-2008 1:16 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 300 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-01-2009 3:47 AM Straggler has not replied

  
caldron68
Member (Idle past 3841 days)
Posts: 79
From: USA
Joined: 08-26-2007


Message 288 of 479 (492444)
12-31-2008 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by ICANT
12-30-2008 8:36 AM


Re: Perfect
ICANT writes:
You are the only one dodging anything.
"They" were not talking about anything.
Jesus was talking to his disciples about their daily walk in life.
So since you are such a great theologian explain what word in the sentence in Matthew 7:14 that says or infers heaven.
I am not dodging anything and you know it. How do you sleep at night? I'm not a great theologian either, but even I can look things up when necessary.
So, given that we seem to have a difference of opinion on what Matt 7:13-14 is actually talking about, I did some research and found that he Blue Letter Bible includes the following translation from the NLT (New Living Testament) which states the following for Matt 7:13:
"You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way.
Here's the link: Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible
This indicates that I am correct. Jesus (regardless of who he is talking to) is talking about the narrow gate through to salvation and the wide road that leads to destruction (hell). He is NOT having a pleasant conversation with the disciples about the narrow path to a good life that may or may not lead to heaven. The scripture is very clear and the meaning of what is being said is also very clear.
Now, because the text is clear and the meaning is also clear we are left with only one thing: You are being deceitful and the last time I checked, this was still a sin.
ICANT writes:
Many will go in at this gate. Most will mess up.
And lest I forget it says this way ledeth to destruction.
It's amazing that you can make a statement like this and still tell me that my interpretation (and Strong's Concordance) about Matt 7:13-14 is wrong.
Is practicing the art of deceit a normal thing for you?
ICANT writes:
Problem is you are the one doing the dodging.
There is no option of heaven or hell offered to anyone In Matthew 7:13, 14.
Again which words say heaven or hell?
Which words infer heaven or hell?
Leadeth to life does not refer to heaven or eternal (everlasting) life.
Leadeth to destruction does not refer to hell or eternal punishment. When you destroy something it could not be eternal punishment.
NLT (New Living Testament) Matt 7:13 "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell [fn] is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way.
Plainly contains the word hell. I suspect that now you're going to tell me that the NLT is the work of Satan and that I am wrong again.
ICANT writes:
And classify you as one of those false prophets I have been warned about.
If you want to see a false prophet, all you have to do is look in a mirror.
ICANT writes:
Why do I have to support my assertion with scripture when I can support it with facts and figures. You would tell me the scripture is a myth anyway.
Because this is what you demand from everybody else. Evidently you do not need to defend yourself by using Scripture, you have the false work of others to support your claims, right?
ICANT writes:
Matthew 7:13-14 does not support your position as it is not talking about heaven and hell and you have not even attempted to prove that it does.
Yes it is and I have plainly posted the truth above. The interpretations of the Bible may be different, but they are not THAT different. Matt 7:13-14 is CLEARLY talking about the narrow gate through to Heaven and the wide road to destruction (hell).
I'd really like to hear from Jaywill, Bertot and John 10:10 on this one. Do you guys think that Matt 7:13-14 is talking about the road to salvation or not?
ICANT writes:
Do you refute that there are 88 abortions performed every minute?
Yes, and here is my reference material: Summary of registered abortions worldwide
The estimated global monthly average number of abortions is 1,206,000. Now if we break a month (30 days) down into minutes we have this:
60 minutes (hour) * 24 (hours in a day) * 30 (days in a month) we get 43200 minutes in a month. If we now divide the number of abortions per month by 43200 we get 27.91 abortions per minute. Way less that the 88 per minute that you are considering in your calculations.
How about you share your sources for your data.
ICANT writes:
Do you refute that there are 30 children under the age of 6 that starve to death every minute?
Do you refute that the death rate is 104.666 per minute?
Show me where you got your data and I will agree, otherwise I will assume that you are embellishing your data, just like you did for the number of abortions per minute.
ICANT writes:
Do you refute that Jesus is speaking to his disciples in Matthew 7:13, 14?
Not at all. He is. So what?
ICANT writes:
Do you refute that the Greek word translated life in Matthew 7:14 means abundant life?
Not at all. But he is also providing us with the knowledge of how to get through the narrow gate into the Kindom of God (Heaven).
ICANT writes:
Do you refute the Greek word translated destruction in Matthew 7:13, means utter destruction?
Nope. Destruction generally does mean utter destruction. The point is, and I am backed up on this by the NLT, that Jesus was clearly talking about the road to hell.
ICANT writes:
Or will you just dismiss them with "so what", "I know what I believe so don't bother me with the facts".
Nope. I have provided the refutations that you have asked for.
Cheers,
--Caldron68
Edited by caldron68, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ICANT, posted 12-30-2008 8:36 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by ICANT, posted 01-01-2009 2:03 AM caldron68 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 289 of 479 (492448)
12-31-2008 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Straggler
12-31-2008 11:06 AM


Re: Re sinless
I am well aware of scripture says about why God "forgave" our sins. The way I am interpreting the questions is as to whether the answers from scripture make any actual sense. I don't think that they do.
A God who is the definition of love and forgiveness and yet who condemns the vast majority of humanity to eternal loveless damnation. A God who supposedly loves and forgives each individual but who punishes each individual for the crimes of a single ancestor. A God who setup the bewildering scenario of an apple not to be eaten and a talking snake to coerce so that he could punish, forgive and then punish again those who do not seek forgiveness from the original punishment.
That my friend is a pile of inconsistent and contradictory baloney.
I read that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoseoever would believe into Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Where does it say that God does not love the "whoseovers" who decide that they don't want anything to do with the Son of God ? For one reason or another they want nothing to do with God's Son. But I never read that they are not loved because of that choice.
You seem to be saying that the love of God would FORCE them to be in His kingdom against their decision. Is that how you view God's love should operate ? He should FORCE them that do not believe into the Son of God to HAVE the Son of God anyway?
The eternal life is just the Son of God Himself, in case you didn't realize it. So how is divine love manifested in that God forces someone to have Christ as divine life when that person wants to refuse to have Christ as divine life?
I am talking here about clear cases of the one deciding not to believe into Christ, he or she rejects Christ for himself/ herself.
Perhaps you argue that if God really loved those who reject Christ and His salvation HE would not allow them to perish.
I wonder if love means that God must not judge sin which He clearly informs us is an abomination to Him. So you think that love should prevent God from judgment - a love which accepts forever rebellion, transgression, iniquity, and revolt.
Do you also feel that the love of man for fellowmen should empty all the prisons, and for love's sake, let every criminal go unpunished ? If I break into your home and slay your family to steal a TV, and we go to court, what should be my defense? Should I have my attorney argue that if the judge really LOVES me he should simply let me walk free?
Perhaps you will object that the sins are no so serious. Keep in mind that the thief, the rapist, the extortioner, the kidnapper all fail to see why their particular crime is taken so seriously. If they were to write the laws, they, no doubt, would place far lesser emphasis on the justice due concerning their particular crime.
The thief would legislate that stealing is of course not too bad of a crime. In fact it is perfectly acceptable behavior.
And how does a happy and peaceful kingdom exists when some of the participants accept the King and others reject Him and His authority? How is it lumping them altogether forever is a harmonious and blessed situation?
I don't see that God stops ever loving the sinner. I see that God must bear the sadness that some out of their own decision want nothing to do with His righteousness and His reign of eternal life.
Or do you feel that God should GIVE UP His rightoeusness to be PERMISSIVE that anything goes in His creation.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Straggler, posted 12-31-2008 11:06 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by lyx2no, posted 12-31-2008 3:20 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 302 by Straggler, posted 01-01-2009 5:53 AM jaywill has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 290 of 479 (492458)
12-31-2008 2:45 PM


The paradox of God's determinism verses man's free will is simply this: God has chosen to save sinners, and sinners must chose to receive God's forgiveness. Both are required.
On judgment day man will not be able to use the excuse that God did not choose to save them. For those who have never heard, God is a just God and will deal with them according to His justice (Rom 2:11-16). But for those who have heard the Gospel of Christ and reject this gospel, they judge themselves.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Blessings

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by lyx2no, posted 12-31-2008 3:25 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Bailey
Member (Idle past 4370 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 291 of 479 (492459)
12-31-2008 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by DevilsAdvocate
12-31-2008 9:55 AM


Who Will Declare Morality ?
Thank you for the exchange.
Christians (such as yourself) claim that God's moral dictates are perfect, immutable and absolute. Correct?
This was directed at Bertrot, who is considers himself a christian; the present opinion is derived from a gentile background.
It appears to the present opinion not all 'moral dictates' in Constantines book of jewish/roman propaganda belong to the Father. However, there are two moral dictates the Father of Life has uttered within the collection assembled at Nicea that are perfect, immutable, and absolute. They, like the Father, are found more easily in rational thought than religious propaganda and though included in many ancient scripture, they are often ignored.
Shall we discuss them?
Than how is it that God creates over 700 commandments for the Jews and the rules of morality outlined by Jesus and his disciples/apostles ...
Jesus tells us that men created the rules because they were too stubborn to record what the Father promotes. He was the only honest one (speculation) that was willing to sum up all the commandments that left a void in the truth of morality. Notice, the Two bits are not nearly as popular as the other ten.
... rules for slavery
You are likely a slave right now. Forgo your local and federal taxes a couple years to enjoy the festivities attached to refusing indentured servitude. Fall on hard times and they will snatch up your 'property' and sell it to the highest bidder. Who will stop them?
stoning of children for backtalking their parents, physically abusing your children, stoning criminals,
Under Iran's strict Sharia law, women sentenced to execution by stoning have their hands bound behind their back. They are wrapped from head to toe in sheets before being seated in a pit. The ditch is filled up to their breasts with dirt, and the soil is packed tightly before people assemble to execute the woman by pitching rocks at her head and upper body. Who will stop them?
ethnicide by slaughtering and pillaging their neighbors,
lol - do the catch phrases 'hamas' and 'doctrinally attached to destruction' ring a bell; the world stage is currently doing business with the ol' german reincarnate! Who will stop them?
infanticide (killing babies and young children)
Within many portions of our wonderland, abortion is perfectly legal; it does not make it moral. Just legal. China eliminated apprx. 250 million potentially whiny babies in just 21 short years. The one-child policy is challenged in principle and in practice for violating human rights. Reported abuses in its enforcement include bribery, coercion, forced sterilization, forced abortion, and infanticide. Who will stop them?
and other God commanded or condoned heinous acts that many modern Christians would now consider to be anitiquated, barbaric, heinous and totally unacceptable in todays modern society.
Prophets continually pleaded with Israeli political leaders and communities, begging them to stop misrepresenting the Father. For misrepresenting the Father as an asshole, Moses was unable to deliver his audience to the 'promised land'. The Father knows most would rather serve the 'fires o' damnation' than a dickhead god; otherwise Heaven would be empty. Instead we are shown a picture where Heaven is full, and a portion of 'christians' that performed miracles in Jesus name are disavowed by Him. They are turned away from his priesthood, though not refused Everliving Life, because they choose to believe and propagate a deceitful lie. This is no different than Moses being 'disavowed', though he was able to bring forth water for his community even by 'disobeying'.
Jeremiah calls the entire nation of Israel out as an assembly of treacherous men that bend their tongues like their bows. He seems to be referencing their knack for abusing the power of Words towards gainful and self purposed ends. He adds that lies and not truth prevail in the land, because past Jews 'proceeded from evil to evil'.
The Lord writes:
And they do not know Me
According to the prophet, we have no reason to trust them and will fare well to be on guard against them, because they all deal craftily and go about as slanderers. They all deceive their neighbors/each other and do not speak the Truth. They have 'taught their tongue' to speak lies and weary themselves 'committing iniquity'.
The Lord writes:
Your dwelling is in the midst of deceit; Through deceit they refuse to know Me
After reading that, how can one keep themselves from running to the rooftops and proclaiming how inerrant 'the bible' is? Constantines book of ancient scripture is not the only Word of the Father; all Words belong to Him. Put that in yo' shmipe and poke it - lol
Is it the trinity or the quadrinity? Why religious people would be surprised that the bible is deceiving is beyond understanding. Not even three chapters in we are told the serpent deceives the human species by manipulating the Father's Words. God's Word is inerrant; books are books. Nevertheless, the bible clearly states that the people originally hired to rep God failed to serve the task at hand; we are later told that a portion of the runners up fail too. We may even witness the latter; time will tell.
Why are these God given commands now unacceptable?
The blasphemous spirit of religion will go as far as equivocating the Father of Creation to a book; even though their special book plainly states a serpent deceived the Father's Words 'in the beginning' of the book. Then we find Moses permitting divorce, not the Father; this did not stop people from putting words in the Father's mouth, "Oh, yeah, da god said we dont godda b married no mo". New law - not the Father's. Were those 'god given commands' ever 'acceptable'; besides to the 'chosen people' whom they served?
The Son of the God in Abrahamic scriptures did not find them acceptable; otherwise he would not have fiddled with them.
How is your system of "absolute" rules by God in the Bible, unchanging?
lol - there is a system of 'absolute' rules by god in the bible?
Please provide a chapter and verse (jewish laws don't count).
How is this moral system not relativistic?
The first one must be; the ten don'ts are widely beheld. A better system of 'absolute moral 'rules'' would not gain as much popularity; reality has testified to this. How many court cases have you heard about implicating the removal of 'the Two commandments' - lol
How many 'christians' peddle ten?
To me it speaks volumes that Christians can not even decide amongst themselves which rules in the
Bible to agree should apply yet they claim their system of morality to be absolute and immutable.
It is likely Jesus, you and I all agree here - religion ... gets 'em everytime. This is likely why Jesus almost punched Peter in the face for trying to worship Him publicly. He knew as soon as that started, the distraction from the Truth would begin.
Boy, was He spot on.
One Love

I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas.
My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself.
Think for yourself.
Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 12-31-2008 9:55 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 292 of 479 (492461)
12-31-2008 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by jaywill
12-31-2008 1:16 PM


My Kid Wouldn't Eat His Vegitables so I Had to Shoot Him
He should FORCE them that do not believe into the Son of God to HAVE the Son of God anyway?
Atheist don't tend to expect much from God. Do you know an atheist who thinks God should grant him eternal life?
Or do you know someone who say, "Jesus is the way, but how bad could burning in a lake of fire for eternity really be?"
If not, who are you talking about?
If I make two pots, and one of them doesn't come out just so, should I love the one and smash the other into shards; grind the shards to a fine powder; boil the powder in acid; vitrify the precipitate and drop it down an abandoned oil well? Or will chucking it do?
If God does exist, how about he let me die, turn to dust and be done with it? Why Burn me?
Do you also feel that the love of man for fellowmen should empty all the prisons, and for love's sake, let every criminal go unpunished ? If I break into your home and slay your family to steal a TV, and we go to court, what should be my defense? Should I have my attorney argue that if the judge really LOVES me he should simply let me walk free?
Perhaps you will object that the sins are no so serious. Keep in mind that the thief, the rapist, the extortioner, the kidnapper all fail to see why their particular crime is taken so seriously. If they were to write the laws, they, no doubt, would place far lesser emphasis on the justice due concerning their particular crime.
The thief would legislate that stealing is of course not too bad of a crime. In fact it is perfectly acceptable behavior.
And how does a happy and peaceful kingdom exists when some of the participants accept the King and others reject Him and His authority? How is it lumping them altogether forever is a harmonious and blessed situation?
I don't see that God stops ever loving the sinner. I see that God must bear the sadness that some out of their own decision want nothing to do with His righteousness and His reign of eternal life.
Or do you feel that God should GIVE UP His rightoeusness to be PERMISSIVE that anything goes in His creation.
All I can make out of this is that you have a silliness quota and it's the end of the year.
Edited by lyx2no, : Missed a bit

Don't do that Dave.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jaywill, posted 12-31-2008 1:16 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 293 of 479 (492462)
12-31-2008 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by John 10:10
12-31-2008 2:45 PM


For the Love of God
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
Would you please stop talking like we haven't all heard this a thousand time. To paraphrase Huntard, "Dude, I've got the T-shirt."

Don't do that Dave.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 2:45 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 294 of 479 (492471)
12-31-2008 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by John 10:10
12-31-2008 9:35 AM


Yes, there are many religious deceptions, Islam being one of many. But the true and living God is explained by the writer of Heb 1:1-3,
But where is the evidence that what he is saying is true and not just another batch of lies. You can't use the Bible to prove itself.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 9:35 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 7:19 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 479 (492473)
12-31-2008 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by lyx2no
12-31-2008 3:20 PM


Re: My Kid Wouldn't Eat His Vegitables so I Had to Shoot Him
Now this is twice in one day you made me laugh, with your subtitle. (the other one was with Landru)
You will surely go to heaven, or at least get big plus points.
God has a problem with this sin thing. You see God cannot kill you or make you cease to exist. Otherwise you would not be created in his image and likeness. That's why there is this eternal hell thing. God CANNOT zap you out of existance.
Now he gave you the same free will He has, but, so some say, doesn't like the way you use it.
Think about this. I have sons and I give them the right to do as they please. Now suppose I say, unless you do as I say I am going to punish you in some horrible way. Is that still "free will" for them?
If I could have made them anyway I wanted, why not just do that.
Sin is not a thing God is concerned about other than he knows you will have to pay a price for it, and He would like you to wise up. The price you pay will be to your fellow man, and YOU WILL PAY IT BACK.
God isn't going to punish you, in a sense you punish yourself by doing evil to others. Is He going to stop you from doing that? No, if He did that then you would not be created in his image and likeness.
God does not forgive sins, you didn't do anything to Him (except decide to leave, and He gave you that option). You must pay back for your sins to others or ask your fellow man for forgiveness.
If you think someone else is going to/or has paid the price for the crap you've done you're dreaming. That will just keep you stuck here, in this universe, forever.
Find your own way out of here. Look and keep looking. No one, and no book can give the answer to you. You have to find it yourself.
Happy New Year
P.S. Try putting "the government" in many places in the bible in exchange for God and that will give a better idea of what that book is about. Especially in the OT.
Edited by petrophysics1, : typo
Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.
Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by lyx2no, posted 12-31-2008 3:20 PM lyx2no has not replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 296 of 479 (492480)
12-31-2008 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by bluescat48
12-31-2008 5:03 PM


But where is the evidence that what he is saying is true and not just another batch of lies. You can't use the Bible to prove itself.
2 Peter 1:19-21
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Wrong! You can use to the Bible to prove itself. The Bible has proven itself over and over again by the prophetic word that has been spoken and fulfilled from Genesis to Revelation. As Peter has said, "You do well to pay attention."
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by bluescat48, posted 12-31-2008 5:03 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by bluescat48, posted 12-31-2008 7:37 PM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 309 by Huntard, posted 01-01-2009 3:05 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 297 of 479 (492482)
12-31-2008 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by John 10:10
12-31-2008 7:19 PM


But where is the evidence that what he is saying is true and not just another batch of lies. You can't use the Bible to prove itself.
2 Peter 1:19-21
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
Wrong! You can use to the Bible to prove itself. The Bible has proven itself over and over again by the prophetic word that has been spoken and fulfilled from Genesis to Revelation. As Peter has said, "You do well to pay attention."
This is still hearsay not evidence. I could say the same thing about the Illiad, that it proves that Zeus controlled humans in the Trojan War. The same type of hearsay evidence, with the same lack of corroboration

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 7:19 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by John 10:10, posted 12-31-2008 10:02 PM bluescat48 has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 298 of 479 (492492)
12-31-2008 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by bluescat48
12-31-2008 7:37 PM


So you equate Greek mythology with the fulfilled prophesies of the Bible. Jesus fulfilled over 360 prophesies which foretold of His coming as the Messiah [http://bibleprobe.com/over-300-prophecies.pdf]. How many more prophesies would Jesus have had to fulfill by your standard of evidence before there was enough proof evidence that Jesus was and is the Messiah?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by bluescat48, posted 12-31-2008 7:37 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by bluescat48, posted 01-01-2009 2:07 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 310 by Huntard, posted 01-01-2009 3:08 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 299 of 479 (492509)
01-01-2009 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 288 by caldron68
12-31-2008 11:42 AM


Re: Perfect
Hi caldron68,
caldron68 writes:
"You can enter God's Kingdom
Please explain to me what God's Kingdom is and why you come to that conclusion.
caldron68 writes:
NLT (New Living Testament) Matt 7:13 "You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell [fn] is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way.
Plainly contains the word hell. I suspect that now you're going to tell me that the NLT is the work of Satan and that I am wrong again.
I could care less what the perversion of the Bible you are quoting says. It is not in the original Greek text.
Mat 7:13 ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
Mat 7:14 ‘ ‘ , ‘ ‘‘
Greek words translated hell in Matthew chapters 5, and 11.
grave Matthew 11:23.
gehenna Matthew 5:29.
I find neither one in verse 13 or 14.
The Greek word translated heaven in Matthew 7:11 is .
I do not find heaven in verse 13 or 14 either.
The Greek word translated kingdom in Matthew 7:21 is ‘.
I don't find it in verse 13 or 14 either.
The Greek word definition, a perishing, ruin, destruction, translated destruction in verse 13 is bolded.
In Matthew 6:25 the Greek word , definition, the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing, is translated life. It is not found in either verse 13 or 14.
In Matthew 7:14 the Greek word , definition, the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, is bolded.
Conclusions:
Jesus is speaking to His disciples.
He is speaking about it being very hard to have that kind of life.
He tells them it is easy to not have that kind of life.
He is not talking about hell as He surely knew the word for it.
Neither is He talking about heaven as He surely knew the word for it.
We know that Matthew that recorded the words for hell and heaven knew the proper Greek words as he had used them as referenced above.
So Matthew did not want to say broad is the way that leads to hell or he would have used to declare he was talking about hell instead of something being ruined or destroyed.
He was not talking about the way being narrow to heaven or he would have used the word to declare he was talking about heaven rather than a dedicated life.
Your argument that Jesus is talking about heaven and hell fails.
Your assertion has been rebutted from the scripture.
caldron68 writes:
How about you share your sources for your data.
My original numbers was from my discussion some 18 months ago. So I checked the main source and found they had revised their numbers. Instead of 46 million it had been reduced to 42 million for 2003. I can find nothing later than those except guesses.
Worldwide 42 million legal abortions a year.
That comes to 115,000 per day.
That comes to 4791.6666666666666666666666666667 per hour.
That comes to 79.861111111111111111111111111111 per minute.
We have 2.5694444444444444444444444444444 per minute in America alone.
These are legal documented abortions.
Source
The miscarriage rate is slightly higher than the abortion rate but we won't even consider that number because it is not needed to give us more in heaven than in Hell.
caldron68 writes:
Because this is what you demand from everybody else. Evidently you do not need to defend yourself by using Scripture, you have the false work of others to support your claims, right?
As far as the number in heaven.
Revelaiton 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Does that sound like your few?
If you can't number them, how many are there in heaven?
caldron68 writes:
Nope. Destruction generally does mean utter destruction. The point is, and I am backed up on this by the NAT, that Jesus was clearly talking about the road to hell.
I have no idea who the NAT is. I think you miss typed and mean NLT being the New Living Testament
Concerning the translation of the NLT.
On the other hand, the NLT translators rendered the message more dynamically when the literal rendering was hard to understand, was misleading, or yielded archaic or foreign wording. They clarified difficult metaphors and terms to aid in the reader's understanding.
Source
In other words they decided what was best for you to understand the Bible was saying according to their belief of what it was saying.
caldron68 writes:
ICANT writes:
Do you refute that there are 30 children under the age of 6 that starve to death every minute?
Do you refute that the death rate is 104.666 per minute?
Show me where you got your data and I will agree, otherwise I will assume that you are embellishing your data, just like you did for the number of abortions per minute.
This site has a neat little counter you can watch. 107 per minute.
This chartshows a death rate of 107 per minute of which 13 are infants.
This sitegives us 15 million children deaths from starvation.
That gives us 28.538812785388127853881278538813 per minute.
So revised numbers.
Abortions 79.861111111111111111111111111111 per minute.
Starvation, 28.538812785388127853881278538813 per minute.
Infants from chart 13.
That gives a total to God of 121 per minute.
Devil possibly 107 - 28.5 +13 = 65.5 per minute if none of the 65.5 are born again.
caldron68 writes:
ICANT writes:
Do you refute that the Greek word translated life in Matthew 7:14 means abundant life?
Not at all. But he is also providing us with the knowledge of how to get through the narrow gate into the Kindom of God (Heaven).
Where is the Kingdom of God or heaven mentioned in Matthew 7:13, 14?
You do know the Kingdom of God and heaven are two different things don't you.
caldron68 writes:
Nope. I have provided the refutations that you have asked for.
You have provided nothing of substance and have refuted nothing.
I still say God loves us as reported by John:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He loved us and gave us an opportunity to trust Him for eternal life.
Which He forces no one to accept.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by caldron68, posted 12-31-2008 11:42 AM caldron68 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by caldron68, posted 01-01-2009 8:06 PM ICANT has replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 300 of 479 (492514)
01-01-2009 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Straggler
12-31-2008 11:06 AM


Re: Re sinless
Stragler writes:
Well I think I do have a valid method of establishing such things. And that on this basis many of Gods actions are pretty dreadful.
Especially when the alternative espoused by you and your fellow literalists consists of supposedly absolute writings that no two people will ever actually interpret or see in the same way. Theists discussing the "absolutes" of morality are no more absolute in their findings than are philosophers. And that is about as non-absolute as it is possible to be
Ill try to get to your last, very lengthy post as soon as possible, New Years and everything, you understand, thanks
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Straggler, posted 12-31-2008 11:06 AM Straggler has not replied

  
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