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Author Topic:   Did Jesus Lie?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 65 (434603)
11-16-2007 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by sidelined
11-16-2007 12:50 PM


That is hardly the case at all since the Bible gives other examples like the woman who touched his robe and the centurion whose faith cured the servant.
These could be exceptions to the rule...
So no, it is available to all.
I'm not convinced. In the quoted passage, Jesus does not seem to be suggesting that everybody has those magic powers. Examples of other individuals posessing the magic powers does not mean that everyone has them.
Are there any other passages where you think that Jesus suggests that everyone has the magic powers?
Again the point remains that it is a lie that such things can be done if taken to be truth as it is written.
As it is written, Jesus was only talking to his immediate disciples. I still don't think he was lying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by sidelined, posted 11-16-2007 12:50 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Brian, posted 11-16-2007 2:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 37 by sidelined, posted 11-16-2007 2:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 32 of 65 (434604)
11-16-2007 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by New Cat's Eye
11-15-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Jesus was no Percy Thrower!
If X is like Y then Y is like X, no?
No.
It depends entirely on what the author is trying to achieve.
For example, if I was trying to exaggerate how grotesque a little fat boy eating a bag of doughnuts was I might say he was like an elephant dipping a bag of buns, but it really doesn't work the other way.
Question to Jesus: What is the kingdom like?
Jesus' Answer: It is like a mustard see that grows into a big tree instead of growing into a small herb.
Except that isnt what the passage says.
Well duh! Do you think I'm illiterate or a complete moron?
Any other options?
Right, but if the mustard seed is like the kingdom of god then it would grow into a big tree instead of a small herb.
Again, you have a different Bible from everyone else.
It really isn't difficult to understand unless you try not to.
Or try to save Jesus from appearing the moron that He was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2007 5:39 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2007 2:31 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 33 of 65 (434605)
11-16-2007 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2007 1:56 PM


I still don't think he was lying.
Not relating to this particular angle, but do you think it was at all possible that Jesus could tell a lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2007 1:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2007 2:32 PM Brian has replied
 Message 62 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 12-04-2007 10:30 PM Brian has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 65 (434607)
11-16-2007 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Brian
11-16-2007 2:19 PM


Re: Jesus was no Percy Thrower!
No.
It depends entirely on what the author is trying to achieve.
Whatever. I hadn't misread the passage, I was just trying to explain it to you.
Its clear that Jesus said that the kingdom of god is like a mustard seed that grows into a big tree (as opposed to a mustard see that grows into the regular herb).
Except that isnt what the passage says.
How isn't it?
Again, you have a different Bible from everyone else.
No, I was using an online bible.
It really isn't difficult to understand unless you try not to.
Or try to save Jesus from appearing the moron that He was.
Well of course he's going to look like a moron if that is what you are trying to make him look like.
What is it about my interpretation that you find to be wrong?
Can you answer that question with something that I can reply to other than just, "Nope, you reaed it wrong, your bible is different."
What, specifically, and I wrong about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Brian, posted 11-16-2007 2:19 PM Brian has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 65 (434608)
11-16-2007 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Brian
11-16-2007 2:21 PM


Not relating to this particular angle, but do you think it was at all possible that Jesus could tell a lie?
As the Son of God, no.
But I do think that you can interpret scripture to make it look like he was lying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Brian, posted 11-16-2007 2:21 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Brian, posted 11-16-2007 2:49 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 36 of 65 (434611)
11-16-2007 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2007 2:32 PM


But I do think that you can interpret scripture to make it look like he was lying.
So, you will agree that you can also interpret scripture to make it look like He wasn't lying?
BTW, I'll concede the mustard seed analogy, I'm a little bit tipsy in anticipation of Scotland v Italy game tomorrow!
Give the Scots a wee cheer during the game, or a wee prayer might help!
All the best.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2007 2:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2007 3:03 PM Brian has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 37 of 65 (434612)
11-16-2007 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2007 1:56 PM


Catholic Scientist
These could be exceptions to the rule...
Now you are shifting the goal posts to avoid the most likely scenario that presents itself. First it is only the disciples,now it is them + the exceptions to the rule. Please do not continue this line of reasoning as it is a dumbing down of the discussion.
I'm not convinced. In the quoted passage, Jesus does not seem to be suggesting that everybody has those magic powers. Examples of other individuals possessing the magic powers does not mean that everyone has them.
Why would he say that it was the faith that prevented them if the power was simply that which he granted them? Why just the disciples? It makes little sense to the Christian religion to make a point of the matter if the idea was not to show that the ability would be for anyone who had the faith.
Are there any other passages where you think that Jesus suggests that everyone has the magic powers?
Well we have the following.
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Again faith is the key and again we have yet another example of a completely different context showing this matter to be true according to the words Jesus used.
Again you apply a wiggle here and there however you do not dismiss the matter as bullshit when this is the mundane answer that appoints itself on the evidence.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2007 1:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2007 3:26 PM sidelined has replied
 Message 40 by ICANT, posted 11-16-2007 6:22 PM sidelined has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 65 (434615)
11-16-2007 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Brian
11-16-2007 2:49 PM


So, you will agree that you can also interpret scripture to make it look like He wasn't lying?
Sure.
I'm biased though, not lying is the default position.
BTW, I'll concede the mustard seed analogy
I was beginning to think you were trolling... but I guess not.
You seem to be more interested in insulting christians than discussing anything.

I'm a little bit tipsy in anticipation of Scotland v Italy game tomorrow!
What sport?
Soccer?
That's, like, my least favorite sport. Plus, all the soccer players that I've known personally were douchebags.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Brian, posted 11-16-2007 2:49 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Brian, posted 11-18-2007 9:30 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 65 (434623)
11-16-2007 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by sidelined
11-16-2007 2:50 PM


First it is only the disciples,now it is them + the exceptions to the rule.
Well, Jesus was only talking to his disciples, right?
He was saying that they have magic powers. We don't really have enough info to know if he was including everybody in on having those magic powers.
There were non-disciples with the same magic powers too. So that means, to you, that everyone has the magic powers?
I don't think so.
Please do not continue this line of reasoning as it is a dumbing down of the discussion.
Excuse me!?
You always have the option of not replying.
Besides, I'm just entertaining the idea that it was not figurative. If you didn't want me dumbing down your thread then you coul have replied to this:
quote:
Its still a posibility in that he didn't really mean that they could move mountains and that mountains are just an example of something really big to exemplify the power of faith.
It makes little sense to the Christian religion to make a point of the matter if the idea was not to show that the ability would be for anyone who had the faith.
Yeah, but nobody really believes that they can move a mountain with the power of their faith alone. The point that Jesus was making was that faith is really powerful. He was using 'moving a mountain' as a metaphore for something impossible to exemplify that. He wasn't saying that people could literally move mountains around with their magical faith powers.
But casting out a demon, not so much.
Why would he say that it was the faith that prevented them if the power was simply that which he granted them?
Because he didn't simply just grant them magic powers. You have to have faith in order to use them. Faith is the mana.
Why just the disciples?
I don't know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by sidelined, posted 11-16-2007 2:50 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by sidelined, posted 11-17-2007 11:32 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 40 of 65 (434653)
11-16-2007 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by sidelined
11-16-2007 2:50 PM


RE-STEPHEN
Hi sidelined,
Are you here equating all so called Christians to Stephen?
Well we have the following.
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.
Again faith is the key and again we have yet another example of a completely different context showing this matter to be true according to the words Jesus used.
You claim the key is faith. The text says He was full of faith and Power.
Stephen was a deacon in the Church, that had seen Jesus, he had accompanied Jesus during His personal ministry.
For your information Peter, Paul and Stephen did many miracles. They also gave their life. These so called Christians you say should be able to perform miracles are not even willing to give their time to the cause of God must less their life.
If you check my past posts you will see I do not claim to be a Christian just a born again child of the King.
Christian=Christ like.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by sidelined, posted 11-16-2007 2:50 PM sidelined has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 41 of 65 (434688)
11-16-2007 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by sidelined
11-16-2007 7:58 AM


Re: Re-Faith of a grain of mustard seed
sidelined what makes you think I am squirming.
I mearly state that I have no doubt that God can do anything.
I will state here and now that I do not have the faith of a grain of mustard seed. It always does exactly what it is supposed to do. Make a mustard plant.
I state that I am not a Christian. Christian=Christ like.
I state that I do not have the faith Peter, James, John, and Stephen had. Those men saw Jesus and was taught by Him. They saw His death,
They saw Jesus many times after He arose from the dead. Peter and John saw Jesus ascend into heaven. They saw the physical evidence and were satisfied. They then endevored to do everything in their power to spread the gospel, even to the point they were killed.
Now you say I am squirming because I do not have the faith that they did. All I have is the record that was recorded and I choose to believe that it is true and therefore by faith I believe God and accept the account of Him and His promises.
You say the record is a lie. That the Word of God is just the rambling dreams and notions of man. That is your priviledge.
I also have the priviledge of believing Gods Word and I chose to do so.
If I am blind and demented because of that so be it.
But we have not even touched on the scriptures that says when that which is perfeect is come (Word of God) then that which is in part (healing, speaking in other languages without knowing them,etc) would be done away with.
1Cor 13:10 (KJV) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
When those are done away with there will remain Faith, Hope, and Charity.
1Cor 13:13 (KJV) And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
I gave you scripture where Jesus said He would not give this sinful generation a sign.
If you have a problem with that, why don't you take it up with Him when you face Him at the Great White Throne Judgment?
Enjoy

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by sidelined, posted 11-16-2007 7:58 AM sidelined has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 42 of 65 (434786)
11-17-2007 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2007 3:26 PM


Catholic Scientist
He was saying that they have magic powers. We don't really have enough info to know if he was including everybody in on having those magic powers
He was not saying they have magic powers, he was saying that faith in God meant that you could accomplish anything no thing would be beyond you.
Yeah, but nobody really believes that they can move a mountain with the power of their faith alone. The point that Jesus was making was that faith is really powerful. He was using 'moving a mountain' as a metaphore for something impossible to exemplify that. He wasn't saying that people could literally move mountains around with their magical faith powers.
Actually ICANT does however, his claim is that he does not have enough, nor can ever have enough, faith.
Regardless, Jesus could have been excused as making an analogy except for the qualification made that states, "and nothing shall be impossible for you". This is a definitive statement to clarify the previous part about commanding the mountain to move. So that line of reasoning is also abundantly incorrect.
If the text is misleading in so vast and chronic ways then perhaps there should be a new "meeting of the minds" in Christianity to obliterate once and for all the silly notions of miracles and faith as limitless in power and turn the religion into a humanist philosophy without the supernatural overtones that are themselves just as silly as the notion of actually moving mountains is.
But casting out a demon, not so much.
My,my,my in the 21st century are we really hearing that a person, clear on the fact that mountains do not move on verbal command, leaves wiggle room for demons? Please tell me you are not saying this.
Because he didn't simply just grant them magic powers. You have to have faith in order to use them. Faith is the mana.
That is what I have been saying.If you have the faith you can move mountains as per the teachings of Christ. That you cannot have the ability to move mountains and nothing be impossible to you means that ,either the faith does not give you anything of the sort, or the teaching is a lie.
Edited by sidelined, : No reason given.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
Albert Einstein

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2007 3:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ICANT, posted 11-17-2007 11:48 PM sidelined has not replied
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2007 12:37 PM sidelined has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 43 of 65 (434918)
11-17-2007 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by sidelined
11-17-2007 11:32 AM


Re-MUSTARD SEED
Hi sidelined,
He was not saying they have magic powers, he was saying that faith in God meant that you could accomplish anything no thing would be beyond you.
Lets look at the passage and see exactly what He said.
Matt 17:20 (KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Jesus is answering a question asked by His disciples concerning casting out a devil.
The reason they could not was their unbelief.
Jesus told them if ye have faith AS a grain of mustard seed,
ADVERB: 1. To the same extent or degree; equally:
CONJUNCTION: 1. To the same degree or quantity that.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
These definitions of the word as says that we must have the same amount of faith the mustard seed does.
I like you had always read the verse to mean as little of faith as the size of a mustard see which would not be very much.
But it does not say that.
It says just as much.
Then the question comes to mind how can a mustard seed have faith. Then I got to thinking about my days on the farm when we planted a garden. I planted a lot of mustard seed and I never got anything but a mustard plant. Some that was planted in a low area in one field got to be a pretty good size. (over 6' tall)
So now I must correct my statement about the mustard seed.
sidelined writes:
Actually ICANT does however, his claim is that he does not have enough, nor can ever have enough, faith.
I definitely do not have enough faith.
I also believe that there is no man alive that is able to perform miracles today by the power of God.
I do believe God can perform miracles.
Since the mustard seed has never deviated from the job assigned to it, the mustard seed has perfect faith. In that it does everything in just the way God planned for it too. It has never disobeyed God.
It has always been perfect every since God created it.
Man on the other hand is a different story.
All have disobeyed God. So none is perfect that is why the disciples had a problem.
Jesus was perfect and had no problem with casting out the devil.
Neither did any of those Jesus gave special powers to.
Not all of the 120 disciples that followed Jesus daily could perform miracles. Not even all the apostles could perform miracles.
Those that could were given special powers.
So for a man to perform the miracles that Jesus and His disciples did they would have to be perfect and have perfect faith as the mustard seed does.
sidelined, many thanks for bringing this to my attention and making me read the passage for what it says not what I thought it said.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by sidelined, posted 11-17-2007 11:32 AM sidelined has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by iceage, posted 11-28-2007 9:05 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 44 of 65 (434952)
11-18-2007 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
11-16-2007 3:03 PM


Plus, all the soccer players that I've known personally were douchebags.
You are such a great example to Christians everywhere!
I taught for 6 months last year at a RC High School and as you walked in the main reception there was a huge mosaic on the floor that contained the words "Let Christ Shine Through You". All the classrooms had this on a wall somewhere, and students were constantly reminded of this, not by me of course (lol). I am sure Christians have strong opinions about others but seldom have I seen any being anything other than sympathetic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2007 3:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-20-2007 12:32 PM Brian has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 65 (435338)
11-20-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Brian
11-18-2007 9:30 AM


You are such a great example to Christians everywhere!
I've never claimed as such. In fact, I remember admitting before that I'm not really that good of a christian. So, so fucking what?
I taught for 6 months last year at a RC High School and as you walked in the main reception there was a huge mosaic on the floor that contained the words "Let Christ Shine Through You". All the classrooms had this on a wall somewhere, and students were constantly reminded of this, not by me of course (lol). I am sure Christians have strong opinions about others but seldom have I seen any being anything other than sympathetic.
I guess I was right afterall when I wrote:
quote:
I was beginning to think you were trolling... but I guess not.
You seem to be more interested in insulting christians than discussing anything.
I guess I'll be putting you back on my blacklist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Brian, posted 11-18-2007 9:30 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Brian, posted 11-20-2007 12:48 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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