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Author Topic:   Does immunity disprove the fall?
AnswersInGenitals
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Posts: 509
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 1 of 66 (353637)
10-02-2006 1:33 PM


Perhaps someone can help me understand something that has been bothering me for quite some time. From what I understand, disease and death are part of the punishment that god has meted out to mankind as a result of the fall and Adam's disobedience. Why then do we have immune systems that protect us from disease? Adam and Eve most probably didn't have immune systems, at least not initially, since they would have had no use for them. So why would god curse mankind with with disease and then give us a very complex and effective immune system to fight those very diseases? I realize that I am asking to understand the mind of god on this issue and that 'that is beyond our abilities' is a valid response, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this.

I am also curious about peoples thoughts concerning modern medicines ability to ameliorate disease and extend the human life span, more than doubling it in the last 200 years. Does this thwart god's purpose in inflicting us with disease? Or does the fact that most of that medical intervention, such as vaccinations, involves boosting the immune system, which god has already given us, mean that it is okay and not 'an abomination in the sight of the lord'?

I quess this would go in the 'Faith and Belief' forum.

Regards, AnInGe


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Message 2 of 66 (353643)
10-02-2006 2:09 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Taz
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Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 3 of 66 (353647)
10-02-2006 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AnswersInGenitals
10-02-2006 1:33 PM


AIG writes:

Why then do we have immune systems that protect us from disease?


We don't have immune systems that protect us from disease. We have immune systems that help us fight against disease.

God said we were doomed to disease and death, not disease followed by death.

Adam and Eve most probably didn't have immune systems, at least not initially, since they would have had no use for them.

Adam and Eve didn't need their sex organs either because they didn't have a need for them. The point is I don't think this is a valid criticism of the existence of the immune system. God didn't ONLY give A and E what they ONLY needed. If it was the case, then all they needed was a little cage in the cosmos to live. Instead, they had a whole garden for entertainment.

I am also curious about peoples thoughts concerning modern medicines ability to ameliorate disease and extend the human life span, more than doubling it in the last 200 years. Does this thwart god's purpose in inflicting us with disease? Or does the fact that most of that medical intervention, such as vaccinations, involves boosting the immune system, which god has already given us, mean that it is okay and not 'an abomination in the sight of the lord'?

Medicine has been used for as long as there's been people and animal. However, there are certain christian sects that are against certain modern forms of medicine, like surgical procedures.
This message is a reply to:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 4 of 66 (353648)
10-02-2006 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AnswersInGenitals
10-02-2006 1:33 PM


you know, I never thought of that before, but I think I know what someone like Faith might say:

"but the super-genome had the potential for the immune system, and because it got corrupted, our once possibly perfect immune system can't now defend us from genetic diseases"

"plus, even without a use for it, they may have still had one--esp. since all our current traits cannot have arisen from mutations"

I had a third one, but now I can't remember it.

oh, wait, this one will do:

"well, seeing as how we're intelligently designed, God would've included the immune system, becuase it just wouldn't do to have us die before we could multiply and be like the sands of the beach number wise. I mean, after all, he knew he would have to punish us, so he was just thinking ahead, particularly since he knows he can't rely on mutations to give us protection to at least be able to prodigiously multiply"


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This message is a reply to:
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Ben!
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Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 5 of 66 (353659)
10-02-2006 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by kuresu
10-02-2006 2:22 PM


I don't see how ridiculing someone's position works towards productive debate and fosters understanding.

Having faith without scientific data is something we allow in many places in this world. Again, I don't see the usefulness of alienating people that you interact with by serving up ridiculous arguments.

Although I have to say, I do enjoy reading the thicker-skinned Faith these days. Faith, when you cut through the crap, focus on the issues, and do you your best to answer questions, I can enjoy seeing you think through things.

Soemtimes the answer is "I don't know" or "we can't know", but ... that is the answer those who answer via scientific conclusions often utter. It is acceptable to say "I don't know".

Sorry, your post just rubbed me the wrong way this morning. :)


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ringo
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Message 6 of 66 (353660)
10-02-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taz
10-02-2006 2:17 PM


gasby writes:

God said we were doomed to disease and death....

Just out of curiosity, where did God link our "doom" to disease?

I've always thought that bacteria, etc. were included here:

quote:
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

It just so happens that diseases like to creep around inside of us.

Adam and Eve didn't need their sex organs either because they didn't have a need for them.

Ken and Barbie Adam and Eve didn't have sex organs until after they were "cursed". ;)

That's why they didn't need figleaves.

OFF TOPIC - Sex organs are off topic. Please do not respond to that portion or continue in that vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning


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This message is a reply to:
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Faith
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Posts: 31624
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 66 (353661)
10-02-2006 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AnswersInGenitals
10-02-2006 1:33 PM


Perhaps someone can help me understand something that has been bothering me for quite some time. From what I understand, disease and death are part of the punishment that god has meted out to mankind as a result of the fall and Adam's disobedience. Why then do we have immune systems that protect us from disease? Adam and Eve most probably didn't have immune systems, at least not initially, since they would have had no use for them. So why would god curse mankind with with disease and then give us a very complex and effective immune system to fight those very diseases? I realize that I am asking to understand the mind of god on this issue and that 'that is beyond our abilities' is a valid response, but I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this.

I hadn't thought about it until you asked, but my answer would be that Adam and Eve would have had a perfect immune system, as they would have been perfectly invulnerable to any harm that could conceivably have come to them from their environment. A big part of the devolution since the Fall, then, would be the gradual destruction of the immune system, but we still have quite a bit of protection left. Interesting in this context to consider that recent diseases specifially attack that system.

I am also curious about peoples thoughts concerning modern medicines ability to ameliorate disease and extend the human life span, more than doubling it in the last 200 years. Does this thwart god's purpose in inflicting us with disease? Or does the fact that most of that medical intervention, such as vaccinations, involves boosting the immune system, which god has already given us, mean that it is okay and not 'an abomination in the sight of the lord'?

God has always had mercy on his erring human creation and supplied knowledge of medicines of various sorts. He clothed his disobedient first couple with protective skins, and cursed the earth for their sake. He never stopped loving his human creation. I personally believe that the great proliferation of medical knowledge particularly in the West over the last few centuries is God's specific blessing for our Christian past. Which means I think we are on the way to losing that blessing as we have been losing our Christian identity.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 30980
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Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 8 of 66 (353662)
10-02-2006 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AnswersInGenitals
10-02-2006 1:33 PM


no it does not disprove the Fall,
Since neither death or disease are part of the curses found in Genesis 3 the issue of immunity would be moot. As referance here are the pertenent sections of Genesis 3.

16 To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."

17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.

19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."

There is nothing in those that has anything to do with disease or other than the acknowledgement that after you die your body will return to the earth. Neither appear as anything new or related in anyway to the curses of Genesis 3.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Faith
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From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 9 of 66 (353663)
10-02-2006 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by kuresu
10-02-2006 2:22 PM


Your guesses aren't far off.
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Faith
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Posts: 31624
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 10 of 66 (353664)
10-02-2006 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Ben!
10-02-2006 3:09 PM


Although I have to say, I do enjoy reading the thicker-skinned Faith these days. Faith, when you cut through the crap, focus on the issues, and do you your best to answer questions, I can enjoy seeing you think through things.

Well, that's very good to know, Ben, thanks. I actually had the thought that if I stopped snapping at people I might get boring -- not too seriously but I did have it. Glad to see that's wrong.


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1455 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 66 (353679)
10-02-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
10-02-2006 3:14 PM


Ringo writes:

Just out of curiosity, where did God link our "doom" to disease?


I don't know if you purposely miread what I said, but I'll clear it up. I did not use the word "doom" in the context of ultimate demise. I used it in a metaphorical context. For example, when you get married you are doomed to a life of monogomy. When you get a pet dog, you are doomed mornings of licked face.

Also, god never directly said "disease" in genesis. He, however, said that A and E would know suffering through the toiling and working of the land in harsh environment for food. I think in this case disease is implied.

It just so happens that diseases like to creep around inside of us.

What's your point?
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 12 of 66 (353680)
10-02-2006 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Ben!
10-02-2006 3:09 PM


eh, it may have come off like that. not intended mind you--I was trying, at the least, to be somewhat humorous. However, I find it helpful to at least know, or to try and guess, what my opponent is going to say in response to a specific question or answer. That whole know they enemy better than they friend (or however that phrase goes). And as Faith later says, I'm not too far off.

The benefit, is that I can then work on specific counters before my opponent can argue with them.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein.
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Edited by AdminPD, : Off Topic Warning


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kuresu
Member (Idle past 676 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 13 of 66 (353684)
10-02-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
10-02-2006 3:15 PM


we have a potential falsification of the fall--a futher deteriorating immune system, thanks to you.

Mind you, this deterioration would have to be genetic in cause. reason being is that there was a recent study done that found that living in a dirty environment significantly boosted your immune system compared to living in a sterile environment (or, perhaps more precisely, a lot less dirty of an environment). Their recommendation for a good immune system--grow up with at least a couple of pets--like a cat or dog. This decrease in the effectiveness is not due to genetics, but your environment you grow up in.

I'm not sure how this could be tested for, but I do know that it would be a long time before the experiment would be completed. And even then, it would only falsify the deterioration of the genome part of the fall.


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1455 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 14 of 66 (353685)
10-02-2006 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
10-02-2006 3:19 PM


Re: no it does not disprove the Fall,
17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.


While this is obviously a reference to the hardship we'd have to endure to work the land for food, I think it is also a reference to the tainted environment that A and E must live in. By tainted, I mean that the world is a diseased place.
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AnswersInGenitals
Member
Posts: 509
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 66 (353690)
10-02-2006 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
10-02-2006 3:19 PM


Re: no it does not disprove the Fall,
What you say here is quite true, as it must be since you are just quoting from the bible. But I have noticed that several posters on this forum, people like Faith and Randman who are really not bible literalists per se but are more like bible interjectionists, strongly feel from their study of genesis that disease and death did not exist before the fall, but were invented at that time as part of the punishment. So, I am accepting that as a premise for my query.
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