The bible and homosexuality: Round 3

In the first thread regarding this topic, I asked if anyone could point out something from the bible that condemns homosexuality. Read the thread here. I explained why you can't use leviticus. Despite my best effort, I couldn't get a single person to post any direct reference from the NT that condemns homosexuality.In round 2, again I was frustrated with failure. Nothing valid from the fundi side regarding bible passages.I've taken the liberty of putting something from the NT below that seem to indicate condemnation of homosexuality. Anyone want to take a stab at this? I just don't understand how come none of the bible bashers on this forum pointed these 2 passages out in the last 2 threads. I'm not a bible scholar. I'd like to know why people didn't take this as a sure sign that God is against homosexuality.Edited to change spellings.This message has been edited by Lam, 06-22-2004 06:22 PMThis message has been edited by Lam, 06-22-2004 06:23 PM

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The Laminator

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So, is this topic going to get approved sometime this month or not?

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The Laminator

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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

I swear someone did post this verse somewhere in the forum, but that it didn't specifically include homosexuals - thus leading to a discussion of whether or not homosexuality fell under fornication. I could be completely off since I haven't found the message I'm thinking of...However, if it is the case - that would imply that your copy of 1st Cor. 6:9-10 includes homosexuality and another version does not, which is an interesting issue in itself, especially to find out when it was revised and in which direction.

It depends specifically on the translation. Most versions of the NT says 'homosexual' or 'homosexual offender', some say '[those who] abuse sex' or 'that do lechery with men', or just 'sodomites' or 'those who commit adultery of any kind'.I think you'd need to look at the actual greek text if you want the exact wording, but it does seem like it strongly implies a condemnation of homosexuality.

That passge as well as most others can be found to mean just about anything you want. Here are just a few samples from just a few of the more common Bible translations out there.NIV
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.NASB
9 Or (11) do you not know that the unrighteous will not (12) inherit the kingdom of God? (13) Do not be deceived; (14) neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [1] effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (15) inherit the kingdom of God.MSG
9Don't you realize that this is not the way to live? Unjust people who don't care about God will not be joining in his kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, 10use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don't qualify as citizens in God's kingdom.AMP
9Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,
10Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.NLT
9Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers--none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God.KJV
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.So if you want it to be anti-homosexual, then pick one that supports your belief. 'Course if you want a different outcome, just pick a different Bible.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Quite likely, but if I read a translation that used the terms "those who abuse sex" or "those who commit adultery", I would not take this as a direct condemnation of homosexuality, since to me homosexual practice does not necessarily equate to abuse or adultery...

Wow jar - impressive...I think an important question might be - which came first? (or is considered the closest to the original Hebrew?)

And the answer is ...each and every one.Simply ask the authors or supporters of that version.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Here are the Romans veses from several different popular versions of the Bible.NIV
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.NASB
26 For this reason (48) God gave them over to (49) degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (50) men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (51) God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,MSG
26Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn't know how to be human either--women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men. 27Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men--all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it--emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches.
28Since they didn't bother to acknowledge God, God quit bothering them and let them run loose.AMP
26For this reason God gave them over and abandoned them to vile affections and degrading passions. For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,
27And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own [4] bodies and personalities the inevitable consequences and penalty of their wrong-doing and going astray, which was [their] fitting retribution.
28And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,NLT
26That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.
28When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.KJV
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;Again, you can find support for any position you wish simply by picking which Bible is the Word.IMHO, the big issue here and throughtout most of the Pauline texts is that Paul is speaking about relationships outside fidelity and a loving, committed one. I believe too many people get hung up on the act (homosexuality) when the emphasis should be on Love vs Lust.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

In Timothy 1:9 we read "For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine"This "Defile themselves with mankind" has been translated as Sodomites. Which is homosexuals. So this is a condemnation of homosexuality.

Seems like all these versions condemn homosexuality.NIV
Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other menNASB
for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one anotherMSG
women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men. 27Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men-AMP
For their women exchanged their natural function for an unnatural and abnormal one,
27And the men also turned from natural relations with women and were set ablaze (burning out, consumed) with lust for one another--men committing shameful acts with men and suffering in their own [4] bodiesNLT
26That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other menKJV
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly

Please note that this IS in fact Jar's subjective opinion. I have found that Jar's opinions very often have no Biblical foundation.This passage is found in the middle of a description of godlessness and wickedness. It also says of the wicked that they have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and that although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserved death, they not only continue to do these very things but also APPROVE OF THOSE WHO PRACTICE THEM.Jar, do you approve of those who practice the things listed in the passage including homosexuality?

Even as you quote it, you need to do some real streatching to find homosexuality in there. And as is always the case, when you look at the various Bible translations and editions, you find that you can support just about any belief you wish.For example, using the same sources as in the other examples you find...NIV
We also know that law[1] is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrineNASB
9 realizing the fact that (26) law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and (27) rebellious, for the (28) ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and (29) profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and (30) immoral men and (31) homosexuals and (32) kidnappers and (33) liars and (34) perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to (35) sound teaching,MSG
9It's obvious, isn't it, that the law code isn't primarily for people who live responsibly, but for the irresponsible, who defy all authority, riding roughshod over God, life, 10sex, truth, whatever! 11They are contemptuous of this great Message I've been put in charge of by this great God.AMP
9Knowing and understanding this: that the Law is not enacted for the righteous (the upright and just, who are in right standing with God), but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinful, for the irreverent and profane, for those who strike and beat and [even] murder fathers and strike and beat and [even] murder mothers, for manslayers,
10[For] impure and immoral persons, those who abuse themselves with men, kidnapers, liars, perjurers--and whatever else is opposed to wholesome teaching and sound doctrineNLT
9But they were not made for people who do what is right. They are for people who are disobedient and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who murder their father or mother or other people. 10These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teachingKJV
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;In addition, there are about 20+ other Bible versions out there so you can find support or rebuttal for just about any point of view you wish.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I have no possible reason to condemn or approve of homosexuals. What reason could I possibly have for approving or condemning something that is totally unrelated to me, can have no effect on me, and in fact, is of no ones business except the individuals involved.See Rule two.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion