Moral Relativism

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All cultures are absolutist if you think about it. They base their constitutions and governments on absolutes such as our Bill of Rights.

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...except that we can change those if we want to...

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Dan: Are you actually saying that it's the same thing to cut off the foreskin as it is to remove the clitoris and/or sew up the vagina?

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Yes.

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No, it's not the same thing.The equivalent to cutting off the clitoris would be cutting off the penis.(In general, though, I do agree with you about male circumcision. I think it is completely cosmetic and uneccessary.)

Look, I AGREE WITH YOU, but I suppose you were too busy looking to "rail against" to notice.If you would come down off of your self-righteous soapbox for just a second, perhaps you would think before chastising a supporter.(jerk)

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No, I did notice. But given the tremendous chip on your shoulder,

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You are projecting.

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If you would get over yourself and realize that you are not the end-all/be-all of discourse for just a moment, perhaps you would think before opening your mouth.

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Projecting again, dearie.

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If you agreed, then you should have just agreed. But no, you did more than that.

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...and it's the END OF THE WORLD, a FEDERAL CASE, and a CAPITAL OFFENSE all rolled into one, too!

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You made a value judgement and tried to make it look like I was an idiot

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Actually, you are doing a fine job of that all by yourself right now.

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who didn't understand that removal of the entire clitoris is not the physical equivalent of removal of the foreskin ("See! Female circumcision is worse!")

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It couldn't be that I was simply disagreeing with a small part of your claim.Nope, could never be that.

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You misquoted me, schraf.

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...yet another CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY for which I should be burned at the stake, I know. What a wretched, wretched excuse for a human being I am!

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The words you are looking for are, "Oops. I'm sorry. I'll try not to let it happen again." But I am not so naive as to think I'll ever hear you say that.

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You are projecting, yet again!I have apologized several times to various people in this forum. I dare say I have never seen you do so, not even once. I think you owe Scott an apology wrt the rant you attacked him with in the "homosexual marriage" thread, for example.I have corrected mistakes I have made, as well, many times.I certainly shouldn't have called you a jerk.This isn't the free for all, so I can't call you what I'd like to.Seems to me that I get along fine with pretty much all the reasonable people on this forum. At any rate, I haven't had many complaints.I don't think you can say the same, though, can you?Start taking your meds again, dude. You are starting to get wacky.

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perhaps you should just refrain from responding to me. You can't seem to handle it.

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Eeeeew, I smell insecurity thinly veiled by arrogance!...not that I don't think you are a smart guy, you know, but you do have some issues.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-24-2003][This message has been edited by schrafinator, 07-24-2003]

I know, I know.I'm done.

Percy, were you just sitting there waiting for me to reply, or what?

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schraf...why did you misquote me?

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I didn't.Someone asked you a "yes or no" question, and you answered. I disagreed with your view, so I replied.quote: Are you actually saying that it's the same thing to cut off the foreskin as it is to remove the clitoris and/or sew up the vagina?

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Yes.

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By the way, not all female circumcision is infibulation.

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One wonders why you felt the need to distort what I said.

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By answering "yes" to the question, you are saying, "Yes, it's the same thing to cut off the foreskin as it is to remove the clitoris and/or sew up the vagina."Your following comment, "By the way, not all female circumcision is infibulation." is irrelevant to the question, because clearly, the question referred to infibulation, and asked if you felt that it was equivalent to the cutting off of the foreskin.

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Technically, way back when this began, I asked you was a simple question... if you felt that cutting off the foreskin was the same as cutting off the clitoris and/or sewing up the vagina. By bringing other forms of female circumcision in, you projected content on my post that wasn't there.

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I didn't comment on it at the time, because I didn't feel it was exceptionally important. But all schraf did was establish that she agreed with you on other forms, and then return it to my original question.

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Right, that's all I did, and it was apparently a big mistake.At a certain point it becomes clear that some people are so self-righetous that it renders them incapable of compromise or being reasonable.

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How many women in the world undergo female circumcision of any kind? Now given that about 20% of the entire male population of the world has been circumcised and given a serious complication rate of 1 in 500, how many men are in the same boat?

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Are you telling me that those men don't count?

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AHA!Now we seem to have gotten to one of the real issues.It has been a common undercurrent of yours in this thread to downplay the suffering of women from FGM, as if that somehow makes any difference to the suffering of men from MGM.I also notice that you failed to include the last part of my post, which was "By answering "yes" to the question, you are saying, "Yes, it's the same thing to cut off the foreskin as it is to remove the clitoris and/or sew up the vagina."Your following comment, "By the way, not all female circumcision is infibulation." is irrelevant to the question, because clearly, the question referred to infibulation, and asked if you felt that it was equivalent to the cutting off of the foreskin."Now, how is this a misquote?It could have been a misunderstanding on my part, or carelessness in reading your post on my part, but it was NOT a misquote.Oh, and I think I have good reason to think that you can become self-righteous and unreasonable, and invent things to rail against, considering the fact that you haven't taken back your accusations to Scott in the same-sex marriage thread.It's a little rich for you to condescendingly demand apology from me, declare that you have little faith that you will receive one because you hold a low opinion of me, then refuse to do what you require of me (for a much more grievous offense).

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It is wrong to murder, rape, cheat, steal, lie, worship idols,

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If someone had a gun to your head and demanded that you say that the sky was green, not blue, in order for them to set you free, would you do it?It's not true that the sky is green, so it would be a lie for you to say that it is.If your grandmother asks you if you like her dress, and you don't really like it, but you tell her that you like the dress, are you guilty of an immoral lie?

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The question of moral absolutes then becomes one of timing. There's a time for everything. When we're here at peace in a free society all of those things are wrong. If I were a spy in a foreign country during a war, I might have to lie, cheat, and steal, to accomplish my mission. As long as the cause is just, and I remain conscientious of who the enemies are, I am in the right even though I may lie, cheat, and steal.

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Don't mistake this for a relativist approach in my thinking.

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Dude, that is EXACTLY a relativist approach in your thinking.A lie isn't always wrong, cheating isn't always wrong, stealing isn't always wrong.If it is wrong or not is relative to the circumstances surrounding the choice to do it or not.

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I am not saying that a particular action in a particular situation may or may not be right or wrong. On the contrary, there is no grey area.

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Please show me the clear "black" or "white" nature of each of these situations:Is it ALWAYS wrong to kill people?Is it ALWAYS wrong to kill people, even if they are clearly trying to kill you?Is it ALWAYS wrong to kill people, say with a nuclear bomb, which will definitely kill lots and lots of babies, toddlers, grandparents, and other innocents, if it will lead to a surrender of those peoples' government in a bloody war?Is it ALWAYS wrong for our government to kill people who have killed others?

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I am saying that in every situation there is a definate right and definate wrong that must be judged based on circumstances.

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Ahh, would that life were like mechanical engineering, huh?Math problems have right and wrong answers, but ethics and moral questions have infinite answers.What is it with you engineers, anyway? I have known a bunch of Creationists who are engineers. I think it has to with you all wanting to get the "right" answers and then be done. You seem very allergic to ambiguity and change.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-02-2004 07:58 PM

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Based on what the Bible says, you need forgiveness or you will go to hell. Therefore, you should be looking for forgiveness if you don't want to go there.

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Which do you think is more important to God; that you take unearned forgiveness from Him when you have wronged another human being, or that you earn forgiveness from the human being you have wronged?I know which one I would consider more impressive.

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In other words, right and wrong exists regardless of whether or not one has found it. Right and wrong is an objective reality, not a man-made concept.

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It is?Show me this reality.Show me "right and wrong" that everyone, regardless of philosophy or creed, agrees upon.

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Yep, pretty much.

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But life is not unambiguous. Life is chock full of complexity and there is a great deal that you cannot know. If you are really considering postgraduate education in the sciences as you said, you really need to get over the idea that you can remove all ambiguity, because that is impossible.There is very little in nature or philosophy that can be reduced to black and white concepts without removing all nuance as well.Simplistic answers are comforting but less truthful than those which reflect the complexity that is undeniably present in nature and philosophy.I would suggest that part of becoming a mature, thinking adult is realizing this.

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No.

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Here I disagree with you.I believe that it is always morally wrong for goverments to kill it's citizens as a form of punishment.

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ALWAYS! uh oh... perhaps you believe in an absolute?

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No, this is a belief based in the circumstances of government; how the judicial system is racist and imperfect, therefore should never take the chance that even one person will be put to death by mistake.

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Do you believe killing is ever justified?

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Killing in general? Yes, there are many cases in which I can imagine it being justified.