Moral Relativism

w_fortenberryObviously this statement is wrong. I can say this from a personal point of view since I am hardly obedient to God and I am happy overall.Now Solomon or you or others may say this is true for you and the statement would hold but not in general since not everyone requires this in order to be happy. fixed quote tags - The Queen
[This message has been edited by sidelined, 12-01-2003][This message has been edited by sidelined, 12-01-2003][This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 12-01-2003]

jar If the right and wrong change due to the circumstances then what is the foundation if by foundation we mean a set of rules that cannot change?

jarSo if we were to take those things we cherish most {family friends}
and be placed in a situation where defending them requires of us doing that which is in violation of the Golden rule we should hold fast to the golden rule and suffer the consequences?Is this correct?

jarIf I understand you correctly then if I gave you this situation for example, you could find a way to resolve the right action that should have been taken in terms consistent with the golden rule?

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"O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it..." [Mark Twain, "The War Prayer"]

jarAnd in that mans position could you live with having violated the golden rule?

jar Ay there's the rub. I cannot so callously excuse the act by appeal to and appoval from a higher power but must live or die with the error on my own.Such is the nature of responsibilty in my eyes.It is the same responsibilty that led me to long ago reject the Christian stance of accepting Christ's sacrifice since I will not have another suffer for my actions.Before I gave up on the sense of God as real I thought that such a gift must be a test to see if men would rather sacrifice another than take an account of their own actions and the subsequent punishment for themselves since I thought that was the measure of a true mans character.I chose responsibility rather than placing my sins upon an innocent man.It still leaves open the applicability of the golden rule to all situations though I do agree it covers a fair number. I have also never been able to delineate the point where responibilty ends for an individual on a world scale especially these days when one nations actions are so tightly bound to anothers fate.Perhaps we can only do our best as you say but the doubt still nags at me when I see the results of foreign policy and my place within it.

General Nazort Such is your point of view not mine. I am no lost sheep nor am I someone looking for forgiveness.It is also prudent when gifts are freely offered to be wary.Temptation is a powerful tool if you get my drift. You misunderstand me I am not looking to escape my responsibility which is what I find the central tenet of christianity to be.Give your sins to christ and your reward is heaven that is powerful incentive to do the very opposite which is to avoid your responsibility for those questionable acts and impulses that one follows in their lives.Behold your next sentence. As I said the central tenet of christianity is just this very emphasis upon absolving yourself of whatever responsibilty you have by choosing to place the burden on the very God you claim to love.It is not something that you need to save me from since I long ago dropped the notion of a creator God and now see it as being the likely product of human frailty rather than any actual supernatural being.I am content with life as it unfolds and I have no fear of an end to it.

General NazortAnd the pilot who did the bombing run in service of his country did he commit murder when he took out the family of the shopkeeper?

General Nazort Sorry GN, What I was getting at is that as a christian one is offered the opportunity to take ones sins and pass them off upon the person you claim you love most in your life.In other words you are willing to take the burden of the sin you would have had to spend time in hell over and pass it on to christ that He may bear the burden.The fact that it is offered does not mean that one should accept and when I was young and concerned with such illusions I felt that my choice not to accept was based on a "nobler" purpose, that of choice between taking my own punishment{as I was raised} and allowing someone else to pay for my mistakes{which has never been my creed}. That is a difficult question to answer someone who goes by means of belief.I did not simply stop believing in God. I gave up on the notion of belief itself as a means of understanding of the world around me and most certainly as a means of actually understanding the dynamics of relationships between people and nations.It is far more plausible and evidentiary to state that religions and the positive and negative aspects of their different points of view are the result of strictly human forces and persuasions.The world is a far more marvelous place when viewed through eyes free of labels being placed upon people and when we see that people are not so different in the things that really matter.The world is also far more interesting through the scientific frame of mind and far more independant of human egos and fears though this is not to say that such does not occur but the actual insistence of peer review and the ability to test and by means of testing get clearer and clearer views over time is extraordinary.Religions have shown me over my short life naught but confusion and backpedaling and as such I no longer place any trust in such matters.I hope this makes things more concise and lucid.This message has been edited by sidelined, 08-05-2004 12:55 PM

General Nazort So if we can pass the burden of responsibility off to superior entities we may then absolve ourselves of responsibility for our actions.? If innocents die as a result of those actions is our responsibility still passed on to those superiors or is this wishful thinking used to accomodate the horror of the implementation of war? No way to know but since his family was collateral damage{what a wonderful way to dismiss the carnage of high explosive effects upon soft human flesh} in a bombing run meant to destroy another we must consider them civilian innocents.

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"O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it..." [Mark Twain, "The War Prayer"]

jar I agree that religions say they are involved in the WHY but religions do not have any consensus of agreement concerning the WHY and IMHO this amounts to useless information. I have found in my life that religious peole CAN be {of course not always} the most brutal backstabbing of people and atheists for instance CAN be{of course not always}be selfless and morally complete in their actions.However atheists do not claim to have a secret that gives them moral guidance that subsequently is shown to be false.This is not to say that religion does no good just that it is not necessary to be religious to find purpose in life and we should not forget that there are religions that directly oppose each others conclusions and so what does it really mean to say that these books and rituals and observances deal with the WHY of life when the conclusions can be diametrically opposed.As to this item This says nothing of a why but it sure does intrude in on how does it not? It is obviously making a statement that is not to be evidenced in reality unless one first believes that a God exisits and even then only in the context of belief which is a product of our imagination. Consider this. God requires belief in order to give it the semblence of reality and yet reality and the things we discover in the world can be resolved without first having a belief.Jump off a cliff and gravity will carry you to youre doom whether you belief in it or not.
The electomagnetic force will insure that doom by stopping your downward plunge in an instant.Of course the position of the christian religion conveniently excuses the ability to testing the presence of God by saying to step off a cliff so that God may catch you is "tempting" your God.But in the same book we have this statement by the very central core of the belief engine that christians adhere to christ himself. Therefore I must ask a simple question and perhaps even open up another thread. Why do all of you doubt this ability when the very person you claim has forgiven you your sins {but only if you really believe which you cannot do UNLESS you believe with all your heart} has said you can do it.Why the hell have you not fixed the problems of the world through simply saying that by your absolute trust in God {which is part and parcel of being forgiven by God in the first place} this shall end? Fill in your own blanks as to what must end war,famine,colored contact lenses get NIKE and do it already!Or maybe it is all just an illusion Hmmm..

GN Yes but christ did not require great belief for you to accomplish this.All he said you needed was So come on! Surely one of you has this.If not I ask you what the hell do you defend with such vigour.Your egos? Your sanity?
This is the thing you say you dedicate your life to. I cannot tell the extent of your commitment as I do not know you.But you guys and gals surely know yourselves and is not one of you committed enough to actually implement faith the size of a mustard seed?You could render all this dialogue a moot point by one simple act.I do not know about the others here but a mountain,let's say Mt.Baker in Washington state doing a nose dive into the ocean off Port Angelas would break my atheist mindset in irreparable pieces,not to mention the publicity it would engender.What is stopping you?

jarInteresting.Care to elaborate?

jarSo dont use to prove anything. Do it in private and never mention it to a soul.Christ said the power is yours and is it moral to withhold its use in the sparing of tragedy and hunger?
I mean it is your power given to you do with it as you please but why would you consider it a problem to use it? Why would christ mention it unecessarily? He could just as easily have said it another way but he did not.Move mountains heck just walk into a cancer ward and heal sick children, remove pain from victims in the burn ward.{you want to see suffering visit one of those}.Are you believing I am trying to tempt you fine do what you need to make it right in your head but for pity's sake why would you wait?

jarYes I agree. Perhaps I will begin a new thread on this soon but I am off to another province starting next week for about 8 days so I may wait till then.Bloody hell we have been going over the field between this topic and that other one LOL Good to bat things back and forth mate.I think I am going to ease up for the rest of the night or I may end up going longer and interupting my beauty sleep.{ a desperate need if ever there was one.}
Take care and we will see you back here.